Plebiscite

General topics related to Living in Chile
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Space Cat
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Re: Plebiscite

Post by Space Cat » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:00 pm

Why obsess with "socialists" when even right-wing The Economist supports a new constitution:
In an effort to placate popular anger Sebastián Piñera, the embattled president, struck an agreement to hold a plebiscite on April 26th on whether to set up an assembly to write a new constitution. Mr Piñera, a billionaire former businessman, has veered between sounding tough and acknowledging that Chile needs big changes. As if haggling over a business deal, he offered concessions at the margin in pensions, health subsidies and so on. A bolder approach is needed. Many Chileans want the promise of a pension system with a stronger safety-net and a universal public-health system. That means allowing private insurance but abolishing health bodies known as Isapres, a Pinochet invention, which drain contributions into a high-priced private system. It also means a commitment to raise taxes, which are only 20% of GDP. Better public services must be paid for.

Is a new constitution essential to achieve these changes? It has been a device of the far left in several Latin American countries to seize control and impose a (failed) socialist model. But in this respect Chile is different. Although much-amended, its constitution is branded illegitimate by its origin under Pinochet. Polls have long shown that two-thirds of voters favour a new charter. The existing constitution is very hard to reform. Matters of routine disagreement, such as health care and education, require a supermajority to change.

That is not to deny the risks. On April 26th Chileans will vote not just on whether to set up the constitutional convention but also on whether this should be wholly elected or composed partly of existing legislators. The new body may suffer from inexperience. Many recent Latin American constitutions have been prolix and Utopian, stuffed with unaffordable “rights” and spending promises. But Chile has safeguards. Unless the new document is approved by a two-thirds vote of the assembly and then in a referendum, the existing constitution will remain.

Above all, the convention offers Chile a path out of its labyrinth. The new constitution should embody a new social contract. It should remove the obstacles to reforming the police, providing universal health care and regulating private universities. A healthier, better-educated population would be more productive. A stronger safety-net would encourage workers to be more flexible. A new basic law could give Chile a fresh start—and Latin America a new model from which to learn.
And confirms my statement from above in a longer article about reforming Chile:
The Constitutional Tribunal, which has a conservative bias, has shielded the Isapres from price regulation, for example.

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fraggle092
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Re: Plebiscite

Post by fraggle092 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:23 pm

I read, and ignored that article as it is a rehash of conventional wisdom, as viewed from outside. Anyway that tribunal will be done away with pretty soon, if Apruebo wins. Power will reside with Florcita Motuda et al to do whatever they fancy.
Bienvenidos a Chaqueteo City.

Après moi, le déluge

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Space Cat
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Re: Plebiscite

Post by Space Cat » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:28 pm

Your hate against Florcita Motuda is irrational: he one of the few deputies with 100% session attendance in 2019 and he consistently votes along his humanistic beliefs.

I prefer the function over the form, so I'd take 100 florcitas instead of all the overpaid slackers in suits.

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fraggle092
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Re: Plebiscite

Post by fraggle092 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:37 pm

Space Cat wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:28 pm
Your hate against Florcita Motuda is irrational:
Usual modern tactic: now I'm an irrational hater. Not like you obviously. Does that make you a rational lover?
I don't hate him, he's a frivolous insult to government. He annoys me, along with all the"slackers in suits" you mention.

As for parliamentary attendance, for that money I wouldn't miss a day either.
Bienvenidos a Chaqueteo City.

Après moi, le déluge

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Space Cat
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Re: Plebiscite

Post by Space Cat » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:45 pm

I'm not mentioning the same person in dozens of my forum posts, so I'm neither. I don't even know all of his positions but I'm glad he annoys so many people at once. A good court jester who "insults" the government is always welcomed.

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fraggle092
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Re: Plebiscite

Post by fraggle092 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:59 pm

Space Cat wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 1:45 pm
I'm not mentioning the same person in dozens of my forum posts, so I'm neither. I don't even know all of his positions but I'm glad he annoys so many people at once. A good court jester who "insults" the government is always welcomed.
Glad you approve, you help to pay his dieta, after all.
I said an insult "to government", not "to the government" btw.
Bienvenidos a Chaqueteo City.

Après moi, le déluge

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eeuunikkeiexpat
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Re: Plebiscite

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:16 pm

Very enlightening this exchange, I may very well vote and take (club in pocket) protective measures as a perceived extranjero. I do have an interest via my stepdaughters and nietos. There comes a time when you have to risk getting your head and jaw bashed in or etc.

Yes, there may be a reason why I ended up here and being a whimpering ass is not it.
There are two ways to be fooled.

One is to believe what isn't true;

the other is to refuse to believe what is true.

- Søren Kierkegaard

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41southchile
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Re: Plebiscite

Post by 41southchile » Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:35 pm

eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:16 pm
Very enlightening this exchange, I may very well vote and take (club in pocket) protective measures as a perceived extranjero. I do have an interest via my stepdaughters and nietos. There comes a time when you have to risk getting your head and jaw bashed in or etc.

Yes, there may be a reason why I ended up here and being a whimpering ass is not it.
Good on you. There are some fucking idiots out there. The other day in Puerto Montt a group of dick shit youths were verbally assaulting and throwing food at a 13 year old girl walking down the street just because she was wearing a german school uniform, "hija de cuicos fachos culiao all the usual mindless shit. Most of those parents at that school are anything but cuico, they manage to place an importantance on educating their kids and it is a real struggle forn some but they manage to come up with the fees,but going without other things, now uniform is optional at that school . When who are dealing with mindless, brainwashed, stupid morons like that who start harassing school girls in the street, anything is possible in these times.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

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fraggle092
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Re: Plebiscite

Post by fraggle092 » Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:26 pm

There is a tendency, especially in the foreign media to interpret this conflict through the use of socio-economic statistics, to frame it in terms of reference that comfortably fit their "progressive" cultural biases. Perhaps they were deceived by the outward trappings of a society that has greatly progressed economically but without a corresponding improvement in social and cultural values. Or civilized behaviour.

Trying to explain this shameless power grab, (which owes more to greed and resentment than to rationality) in mathematical terms is pointless. The much-ventilated "social demands" were never more than a pretty thin attempt, along with many others, to justify the street violence and political arm-twisting, which continue without letup.

Its a shit show, and anyone who believes that any good will come from it is seriously deluded. Imho.
Bienvenidos a Chaqueteo City.

Après moi, le déluge

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Space Cat
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Re: Plebiscite

Post by Space Cat » Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:12 pm

Because it is a socio-economic problem of a country stuck in the middle income trap. That's why as much as 80% of the population were supporting the protests even according to the conservative polls.

And that's why it's so obvious to the foreign media: the current situation happened in most developed countries at some point, see May '68 in France. Painting it as a conspiracy to "grab power" means being unaware of how people live outside of your economic class.

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fraggle092
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Re: Plebiscite

Post by fraggle092 » Sat Mar 14, 2020 11:02 pm

Space Cat wrote:
Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:12 pm
Because it is a socio-economic problem of a country stuck in the middle income trap. That's why as much as 80% of the population were supporting the protests even according to the conservative polls.

And that's why it's so obvious to the foreign media: the current situation happened in most developed countries at some point, see May '68 in France. Painting it as a conspiracy to "grab power" means being unaware of how people live outside of your economic class.
I would say that you are the one who is regurgitating third-party "news" tailored to appeal to the liberal attitudes of a foreign audience, safely distant from the shitty Chilean reality.

You have a nerve to lecture me and make assumptions about my "economic class", about which you know fuck-all.
Bienvenidos a Chaqueteo City.

Après moi, le déluge

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Space Cat
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Re: Plebiscite

Post by Space Cat » Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:09 pm

I mostly read Chilean news and social media but post English sources here because not all forum members speak Spanish well.

You wrote before about running a tourist business and hiring people, so I doubt that you live at the level of the D or E socio-economic groups (49% of the population, CL$ 320-560k per household).

You make assumptions about the protesters all the times, spreading conspiracy theories about them being manipulated from Cuba and Venezuela. Too lazy to search through more of your posts but the constant "it can't be happening on its own" is your main topic.

So if you think that you are free to slander millions of people in the protest movement as political puppets who can't think on their own, don't get offended when some rando online points out that maybe you are simply too rich to understand why both poor and middle-class Chileans aren't happy with their lives.

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