Plebiscite

General topics related to Living in Chile
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tiagoabner
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Re: Plebiscite

Post by tiagoabner » Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:03 am

My issue with this whole thing is that most of the things that people are complaining about are all defined and controlled by other laws, not the constitution. AFPs, Isapres, pensions, public transportation are all ruled by laws and decrees, not by the constitution. Thus, it's possible to change them all without changing the constitution.

Pushing for a constitutional assembly in order to change items that aren't even there is what the extreme left wants. They have no chance to do their revolution through popular vote in the elections, so they're trying to do it through a misinformation campaign.
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41southchile
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Re: Plebiscite

Post by 41southchile » Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:59 am

tiagoabner wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:03 am
My issue with this whole thing is that most of the things that people are complaining about are all defined and controlled by other laws, not the constitution. AFPs, Isapres, pensions, public transportation are all ruled by laws and decrees, not by the constitution. Thus, it's possible to change them all without changing the constitution.

Pushing for a constitutional assembly in order to change items that aren't even there is what the extreme left wants. They have no chance to do their revolution through popular vote in the elections, so they're trying to do it through a misinformation campaign.
By some quirk of nature most people I know and associate with on a daily basis are in favor of changing the constitution, they just want change for changes sake, they seem to be of the opinion that society is not fair (that's life I tell em) , they smile and continue on not really listening. I'm not sure whether its envy, a feeling that concentration of wealth is held by too few (not sure what they would do if they had a share of it or would be capable of administering it) but it's more than that , they genuinely believe that the elites are shitting on and have shat on too many people, the system doesn't work, a lot believe that much of the AFP funds dont even exist and have been squandered away, that politicians are corrupt, companies are all in collusion, the environment is being raped and pillaged etc etc etc. We can sit here and debate about what we think and why, but fact is there are shit loads of every day people that have drunk the Kool aid and to them the only logical solution is to have a new constitution.
Maybe it's the education system? , isnt it like 60 percent of supposed literate people dont actually comprehend what they are reading ? I'd believe that here, maybe a little higher even.



*"Drinking the Kool-Aid" is an expression used to refer to a person who believes in a possibly doomed or dangerous idea because of perceived potential high rewards. The phrase often carries a negative connotation.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

PXYC
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Re: Plebiscite

Post by PXYC » Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:47 pm

41southchile wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:59 am
tiagoabner wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:03 am
My issue with this whole thing is that most of the things that people are complaining about are all defined and controlled by other laws, not the constitution. AFPs, Isapres, pensions, public transportation are all ruled by laws and decrees, not by the constitution. Thus, it's possible to change them all without changing the constitution.

Pushing for a constitutional assembly in order to change items that aren't even there is what the extreme left wants. They have no chance to do their revolution through popular vote in the elections, so they're trying to do it through a misinformation campaign.
By some quirk of nature most people I know and associate with on a daily basis are in favor of changing the constitution, they just want change for changes sake, they seem to be of the opinion that society is not fair (that's life I tell em) , they smile and continue on not really listening. I'm not sure whether its envy, a feeling that concentration of wealth is held by too few (not sure what they would do if they had a share of it or would be capable of administering it) but it's more than that , they genuinely believe that the elites are shitting on and have shat on too many people, the system doesn't work, a lot believe that much of the AFP funds dont even exist and have been squandered away, that politicians are corrupt, companies are all in collusion, the environment is being raped and pillaged etc etc etc. We can sit here and debate about what we think and why, but fact is there are shit loads of every day people that have drunk the Kool aid and to them the only logical solution is to have a new constitution.
Maybe it's the education system? , isnt it like 60 percent of supposed literate people dont actually comprehend what they are reading ? I'd believe that here, maybe a little higher even.



*"Drinking the Kool-Aid" is an expression used to refer to a person who believes in a possibly doomed or dangerous idea because of perceived potential high rewards. The phrase often carries a negative connotation.
All the arguments you list, as per your perception, are the arguments that always existed on all elections on all countries. It's what we in Portugal call "voto castigo" (punishment vote).
Take Argentina as the most absurd example of this behaviour: people are discontent, they replace Kirschner by Macri, people continue to be discontent, they replace Macri by Kirshcner (again). The rule is: if people are discontent they vote to punish the current status quo, they vote against something and not necessarily in favor of something.

The thing here in Chile is that Piñera booked a plesbicite instead of new parlamentary elections.

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41southchile
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Re: Plebiscite

Post by 41southchile » Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:05 pm

PXYC wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 1:47 pm
41southchile wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:59 am
tiagoabner wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:03 am
My issue with this whole thing is that most of the things that people are complaining about are all defined and controlled by other laws, not the constitution. AFPs, Isapres, pensions, public transportation are all ruled by laws and decrees, not by the constitution. Thus, it's possible to change them all without changing the constitution.

Pushing for a constitutional assembly in order to change items that aren't even there is what the extreme left wants. They have no chance to do their revolution through popular vote in the elections, so they're trying to do it through a misinformation campaign.
By some quirk of nature most people I know and associate with on a daily basis are in favor of changing the constitution, they just want change for changes sake, they seem to be of the opinion that society is not fair (that's life I tell em) , they smile and continue on not really listening. I'm not sure whether its envy, a feeling that concentration of wealth is held by too few (not sure what they would do if they had a share of it or would be capable of administering it) but it's more than that , they genuinely believe that the elites are shitting on and have shat on too many people, the system doesn't work, a lot believe that much of the AFP funds dont even exist and have been squandered away, that politicians are corrupt, companies are all in collusion, the environment is being raped and pillaged etc etc etc. We can sit here and debate about what we think and why, but fact is there are shit loads of every day people that have drunk the Kool aid and to them the only logical solution is to have a new constitution.
Maybe it's the education system? , isnt it like 60 percent of supposed literate people dont actually comprehend what they are reading ? I'd believe that here, maybe a little higher even.



*"Drinking the Kool-Aid" is an expression used to refer to a person who believes in a possibly doomed or dangerous idea because of perceived potential high rewards. The phrase often carries a negative connotation.
All the arguments you list, as per your perception, are the arguments that always existed on all elections on all countries. It's what we in Portugal call "voto castigo" (punishment vote).
Take Argentina as the most absurd example of this behaviour: people are discontent, they replace Kirschner by Macri, people continue to be discontent, they replace Macri by Kirshcner (again). The rule is: if people are discontent they vote to punish the current status quo, they vote against something and not necessarily in favor of something.

The thing here in Chile is that Piñera booked a plesbicite instead of new parlamentary elections.
Yup agree with all that, as I say these are the arguments that I'm hearing from my left leaning friends. I listen to try and understand where they coming from, whether or not I agree or disagree or my perceptions is irrelevant, above is basically their arguments, plus others I've mentioned previously, and those are the ones that are all convinced that apruebo is the way forward .
Those that are convinced rechazo, have their own arguments, similar to what has been brought up here. It's a real eye opener to hear people's opinions and perceptions as an outsider, which is what I am in the end no matter how much I feel a part of the country/community and have done for 25 years. I thought I knew this country but clearly dont, which makes for a mixture of feelings and emotions. At best I can only imagine what it means for those born and raised here , and what Chileans thought it meant to be Chilean are feeling in these times.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

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Space Cat
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Re: Plebiscite

Post by Space Cat » Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:55 am

tiagoabner wrote:
Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:03 am
My issue with this whole thing is that most of the things that people are complaining about are all defined and controlled by other laws, not the constitution. AFPs, Isapres, pensions, public transportation are all ruled by laws and decrees, not by the constitution. Thus, it's possible to change them all without changing the constitution.

Pushing for a constitutional assembly in order to change items that aren't even there is what the extreme left wants. They have no chance to do their revolution through popular vote in the elections, so they're trying to do it through a misinformation campaign.
From what I've read, Chile has this Tribunal Constitucional which acts like a conservative fourth branch of the government and can reject the reforms of these laws.

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fraggle092
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Re: Plebiscite

Post by fraggle092 » Thu Mar 12, 2020 10:31 am

Space Cat wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 1:55 am

From what I've read, Chile has this Tribunal Constitucional which acts like a conservative fourth branch of the government and can reject the reforms of these laws.
Checks and Balances. The constitutional tribunal reviews proposed changes in the law to ensure that they are within the limits of what's constitutionally permissible. It was bitterly attacked during Bachelet's term by the Socialists who have always wanted to abolish it, as it imposes limits on political power.

It was actually discussed here a few years ago when it was proposed that SERNAC be given much greater atribuciónes.

If this power grab is successful, there's no doubt that its powers will be weakened, or it may even be eliminated when the constitution is rewritten.
Bienvenidos a Chaqueteo City.

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admin
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Re: Plebiscite

Post by admin » Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:15 am

so the idiots at the minister of health seem to think they can still go forward with the voting in the middle of this pandemic, and it does not constitute a "massive" gathering of people.

https://www.emol.com/noticias/Nacional/ ... lizar.html

by my calculations we will be smack in the center of the storm on april 26th, with uncontrolled community spread. throw some gasoline on that fire by making everyone get together to vote.
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41southchile
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Re: Plebiscite

Post by 41southchile » Fri Mar 13, 2020 6:46 am

admin wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 5:15 am
so the idiots at the minister of health seem to think they can still go forward with the voting in the middle of this pandemic, and it does not constitute a "massive" gathering of people.

https://www.emol.com/noticias/Nacional/ ... lizar.html

by my calculations we will be smack in the center of the storm on april 26th, with uncontrolled community spread. throw some gasoline on that fire by making everyone get together to vote.
Old people vote disproportionately more tha other groups, yeah that will end well .
Saw that article, seems they are still trying to placate people, I give it another month before they call it off, so as to not give people too much time to shout and riot.that it's all a right wing conspiracy.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

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Re: Plebiscite

Post by admin » Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:39 am

If they go forward with it, in the middle of a pandemic everyone will screem that it was an illegitimate constitution.

If they delay it, everyone will scream it was an illegitimate constitution.

so, what's the difference? one way or the other, everyone is going to screem it is an illegitimate constitution.
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41southchile
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Re: Plebiscite

Post by 41southchile » Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:58 am

admin wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:39 am
If they go forward with it, in the middle of a pandemic everyone will screem that it was an illegitimate constitution.

If they delay it, everyone will scream it was an illegitimate constitution.

so, what's the difference? one way or the other, everyone is going to screem it is an illegitimate constitution.
Delay it till Spring with municipal elections. Anything else is completely irresponsible, oh that's right this is Chile not exactly the perfect example of a responsible people,
a country where nearly every parent roars around town with kids not in safety belts, hanging out the window. Not sure if that's irresponsibility or just ignorant morons. Either way here comes level 3 and community spread is going to happen, and they want to have a bloody vote politicians are living in a fucking parallel universe here in chile, and squabbling over absolute bullshit and petty political arguments.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

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tiagoabner
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Re: Plebiscite

Post by tiagoabner » Fri Mar 13, 2020 8:54 am

admin wrote:
Fri Mar 13, 2020 7:39 am
If they go forward with it, in the middle of a pandemic everyone will screem that it was an illegitimate constitution.

If they delay it, everyone will scream it was an illegitimate constitution.

so, what's the difference? one way or the other, everyone is going to screem it is an illegitimate constitution.
If they're going to scream anyway, the government might as well go with the option that doesn't infect thousands of people with a highly contagious disease.

But this is Chile, and I have no faith in any politician here doing anything remotely logic.
I'm NOT your lawyer, accountant or financial planner. All information at this post should be considered for your entertainment only. Consult a professional before making a decision regarding whatever topic was mentioned in this post.

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fraggle092
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Re: Plebiscite

Post by fraggle092 » Fri Mar 13, 2020 12:52 pm

Comentario by Gonzalo Rojas on biobio. Ofensiva final contra Piñera

It goes something like this:
"Given that the Coronavirus epidemic may force the government to suspend the Plebiscite, the forces set on regime change may try to unseat Piñera even before that date, with escalated street violence and further parliamentary pressure, such as the current attempt to oust him using accusations of physical or mental incapacity."

They dont want a postponement as this gives the government a breathing space; the opposition forces would lose the initiative. Having come so far, they may tirar toda la carne a la parilla and go all out to force regime change without even the semblance of legality. After all, this level of chaos cannot be sustained indefinitely.

Piñera's recent televised appearances may have been aimed, at least partially, to defuse this absurd accusation of ill-health.
Bienvenidos a Chaqueteo City.

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