State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by admin » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:21 am

well, more pleasant news (take whatever can get these days), I read an interview with some people that were marching in fresia (small town, region x, not rich).

This lady says, "we are marching to show our support for fixing the social issues, but we are not looting or destroying our town. what are we going to do, loot and burn our friends and families buisnesses that we depend on"?

This quickly becoming an urban security crisis, especially in any city with a university population.
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:29 am

Badbadbad wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:19 am
I just read some where about the International Dockworkers Council saying something about a boycott? My Spanish is not very good, anyone have info about that?
San Antonio and Ventanas port workers strike on Tuesday.
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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by Badbadbad » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:33 am

eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:29 am
Badbadbad wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:19 am
I just read some where about the International Dockworkers Council saying something about a boycott? My Spanish is not very good, anyone have info about that?
San Antonio and Ventanas port workers strike on Tuesday.
Not that one, i'm talking about something from the international one

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by 41southchile » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:37 am

admin wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:03 am
well, here you go. This what the 30 peso metro discount just cost everyone. IPC increased 0.8% in October.

https://www.emol.com/noticias/Economia/ ... chile.html

those are still really early inflation numbers. I would expect a significant revision.
Constitution material prices and other things are going up a lot in Puerto Montt
I can't decide for you. You'll have to make up your own mind.

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by 41southchile » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:47 am

admin wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:21 am


This quickly becoming an urban security crisis, especially in any city with a university population.
Yes, try explaining that to the tourists though. The lack of people in the South means there are not nearly as many issues, its maths, and by the sounds of it the north not much either, and the familiarity of living in small communities means it's a lot more peaceful.
I can't decide for you. You'll have to make up your own mind.

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:48 am

Badbadbad wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:33 am
eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:29 am
Badbadbad wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:19 am
I just read some where about the International Dockworkers Council saying something about a boycott? My Spanish is not very good, anyone have info about that?
San Antonio and Ventanas port workers strike on Tuesday.
Not that one, i'm talking about something from the international one
I did see a document on a Chilean WhatsApp group from the IDC but I did not read it and have already deleted it. So don't know if real or fake news.
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the other is to refuse to believe what is true.

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by Zenth » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:15 am

Anarchists only destroy the property of others.

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by mem » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:16 am

cali_chile48 wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 8:43 am
As we all know, there have been many protests over the years in Chile. This one is different in scale and duration, and for better or worse, will result in a different society.

For the first time in my 8 years teaching at Universidad San Sebastian, the students there are activated. They are participating in the street protests, they are protesting on campus, they are meeting to strategize, they are not attending class. I have had the opportunity to meet with them in small groups over the past few days. They're angry and frustrated, for all the reasons we have been discussing....high tuitions, student debt, high interest rates, small pensions, lousy public transport, poor health care, unresponsive government, corruption, etc. But the thing that is really pissing them off is the overuse of force by the police against them. It seems that they can almost tolerate all the rest of the shit in this country, but not that.

I have tried to talk to them about non-violent resistance, boycotts, sit-ins, massive civil disobedience, and I have tried to help them understand that violence is not going to help them achieve their goals of a more equitable society. Their response? That takes too long, and we don't have time for it. This is the impatience I have spoken of before. They want results now. They understand that Gandhi and King and Mandela worked for years to get results, and they don't want to wait that long.

One could argue that they have already waited for years. True, in a way, but not in such a massive demonstration as we are witnessing now. What s happening now, I submit, should be seen as the beginning of the real struggle, because now, for the first time, there seems to be a large enough portion of the population involved to force change. That's the hopeful bit. But it still needs to be guided by principles of non-violent resistance. It's an uphill fight to get these ideas to sink in, but an absolutely necessary one to engage in, because the alternatives are so bad I don't want to spend to much time thinking about them.
So you are trying to reason with them to only pursue non-violent protest, but they dont have the time and patience for that. They want to burn/loot/be violent.

These are college educated people...they will just have to learn the lessons of kindergarten the hard way

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by cali_chile48 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:23 am

So you are trying to reason with them to only pursue non-violent protest, but they dont have the time and patience for that. They want to burn/loot/be violent.
I don't think that the students are burning and looting. Some of them might throw a rock or two and yell insults. They are aware that there is a set of anarchists that use their protests as cover. They are angry about the police blaming them for what the anarchists are doing and using extremely rough tactics that sometimes cross the line to abuse.

Non-violent tactics usually imply a willingness to receive blows and not respond with aggression, which takes a lot of courage. I'm not convinced that very many of the young people I know are quite ready for that....but that doesn't mean that they are throwing fire bombs.

Not to state the obvious, but the police also need much better training.

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by mem » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:24 am

Britkid wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 6:19 am
What the admin says seems plausible. Watch the President when he gives those little speeches. Watch him not just when he talks but when he is waiting to talk, or listening to another politician talk, his body language walking away from the podium. There seems to be stubbornness in it all.
Aren't we all a little shutdown,tired,fatigued over all this?

All of us are essentially powerless to fix everything...and that includes Pinera. He has made proposals and sent them to the legislature...increasing wages, pensions, etc

Yet the burning and looting continue.

Does anyone think that there is anything that Pinera could do or say, just himself without legislature cooperation, that would put a stop to all looting and burning across the country?

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by cali_chile48 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:45 am

Does anyone think that there is anything that Pinera could do or say, just himself without legislature cooperation, that would put a stop to all looting and burning across the country?
I think it's quite obvious he could be doing more. He is in a position similar to de Klerk in South Africa. He has to recognize that he needs to lead Chile Vamos to make concessions and compromises...mostly long overdue social and constitutional reforms.

Psychologically, he seems to be struggling with the process of accommodation, ie., how to fit new information into his understanding of the world. He needs an internal paradigm shift. If he can't do that, he's not fit for the job. Trouble is, he's in office for two more years....so it could be a really long 2 years for Chile if he continues rejecting the new paradigms that are being imposed on him, and the whole country will pay for it. He's on the hot seat, he wasn't expecting it, he doesn't seem to be well prepared....we'll see if he can adapt. The longer he takes, the more shit is gonna burn...

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Re: State of emergency and curfews, October 2019

Post by Jamers41 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 11:06 am

admin wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 10:06 pm
hlf2888 wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:51 pm
admin wrote:
Thu Nov 07, 2019 9:17 pm
well, I don't know how to even say this, or where to start; but, I also feel the obligation to convey this information.

For those that do not know, new to the forum, etc, we have some deep political contacts with both the left and the right governments in chile. I simply don't talk about it much, as it is not terribly relevant on a daily basis to what we do these days.

For example, the current minister of defense Espina, former senator, all the way back to the dictatorship, was my wife's former boss. For lack of a better job description, she was his chief of staff when I met her. I have met him too personally a few times over the years. my wife has met both bachelet and pinera in person, before either were president, and pretty much every politician that was not in grade school when she was in political circles.

so, long story short, we know people, and people that know people. by the way, small country. the political circle is even smaller. remember, bachelet and her family, use eat dinner at Pinochet's house. bachelet's father was a general too. that small.

likewise, my wife's uncle was, among other things, the head of the chilean diplomatic mission to the U.N. under Pinochet; but he was not a fan. in fact, he is convinced the military tried to poison him when he was stationed in Italy during the dictatorship. having a drink with Tio Waldo is historically fascinating.

well, in the middle of this crisis, it has been really hard for us to really be able to talk to our friends in high place. not because they don't want to talk to us, but because they are really, really busy. In fact, some are now calling us out of a exhaustion and a shear need to vent.

let me put it this way, many of these "friends", if we call at 3 a.m., they answer; they just have been so busy , at 3 a.m. in the morning, they can not answer. so, we have been trying not to bug them. they got bigger problems than our curiosity.

well, we finally are getting some intel out if our contacts, and it is not good.

most are saying pinera is in denial and shutting down about what is happening. I don't mean the people around him either; I mean him.

Basically everyone is saying he is a manager, not a strategist. More Trump, less Roosevelt or Churchill.

but, we are also hearing the people around him are also sort of in denial and shutting down.

they are in a sort of target fixation of conspiracies, that this is all a small group of bad people, communist, etc; to the exclusion of really seeing the bigger picture that people are really pissed on a broad scale. in spite of them repeating publicly that they hear the "legitimate concerns" of the people, they are not hearing anything at the top levels of the government.

not sure what else to say about that.

my confidence in this information I would say at this point is about a 7 out of 10. The sources, at least in my mind, are solid; mostly because we have gotten it from multiple independent sources, with opposing political axes to grind with pinera. some left, some right.

I still would never give a 9 or 10 out of 10. always leave room for doubt.

I just really hope they are all wrong.
So, you said all that to say what?
I don't know, but it is not good.
So any chance you could use your contacts to give ideas to help defuse the situation? Perhaps talk to someone, such as your wife's old boss, who has the administration's ear (or even that of Piñera himself) and pass along proposals? I myself can think of things that I believe would calm the situation, some of the mayors of his own coalition (Rodolfo Carter of La Florida, German Codina of Puente Alto, etc) have shared good ideas on TV programs........I find it hard to comprehend that Piñera wouldn't listen to any of them. I even saw Iván Flores (president of the lower chamber) in an interview this morning and got the impression that, as Chileans would say, "tiene la película clara"........and this is who the president will have to be negotiating with in order to pass any legislation.

Ultimately, I think the president or someone high up needs to take a page from the book of Proverbs from the Bible........"a soft answer turns away anger".........and stop sending the pacos after any and all protestors.

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