Wood burning for heat - what is needed to make it unnecessary?

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mem
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Re: Wood burning for heat - what is needed to make it unnecessary?

Post by mem » Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:23 am

Zenth wrote:
Tue Oct 15, 2019 11:26 pm
For many people, wood is essentially free. You just walk into the forest or onto someones land and pick it up. Therefore, buying processed wood pellets doesn't seem to make sense not them. Like the dairy farmer buying milk at the store. Better wood burning wood stoves would help as would better kerosene heaters. Done right, neither of these pollute that much.
I don't think gas lines are the answer in many areas due to seismic activity. I heard natural gas is more expensive than propane; it's usually the other way around because propane contains more energy per cubic however you measure. Somebody please verify or correct this statement.
With proper insulation, electric heating would not be too expensive for most of the country. I bet Chile has enough wind to power windmills in most areas. Plenty of geothermal locations as well. If the politicians could move aside, and let real free enterprise take the lead, everything would be fine.
A fine point on the seismic activity and gas lines. Oddly enough I rented a house for a year a few years ago that was in a condomino on the side of a volcano that had a gas line...it was so nice not dealing with refilling large propane tanks but yeah if there is a major eq i can see those lines rupturing and at best releasing the gas into the air and at worst blowing up

It's too bad there aren't pellet stoves that can use propane for the electric part...they way they do for dryers and freezers that run on propane. I imagine the pellet stove would just sip propane and make the pellet stove work with power outages the way a wood stove can.

But yet, people think it's better to pick up "free" wood in the forest or buy wet wood rather than do pellets as well as the high initial cost of a pellet stove. Pellets are more expensive than buying firewood in bulk but there are benefits in not dealing with all the dirt and grime and bugs and pests of large wood piles versus pellets and the benefit of loading a pellet bag once a day versus tending the wood stove hourly. The cleanliness and time saving may well offset the cost premium of pellet fuel...still its DOA for most people that dont want to pay more upfront for a pellet stove. However if electricity was cheap enough (by somehow or someway, even if its mass subsidies) it seems the most likely way to get the most people including the poor to stop or cut down dramatically on urban wood burning

If chile tries to carbon tax domestic electricity usage it's going to be the exact wrong thing to do...becasue people will just compensate with more wood burning which by far does the most air pollution emissions of anything else on the map particularly when it is done by people that dont know how to burn as clean as possible

mem
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Re: Wood burning for heat - what is needed to make it unnecessary?

Post by mem » Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:30 am

Well any kind of free money, subsidy, incentive will certainly appeal to the psyche

To clarify it's not that I'm advocating for some kind of socialist free money intervention, but if it comes down to spending x amount of dollars on some token electric buses from China I'd rather see that money going to something that directly will cut ignorant wood burning in mid/big cities...like temuco or los angeles. For me it's about the urban air pollution and ignorant wood burning is the giant major source of that...nothing else comes close. Not vehicles not factories nothing can even begin to approach wood burning for sheer air pollution.

lost gringo
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Re: Wood burning for heat - what is needed to make it unnecessary?

Post by lost gringo » Wed Oct 16, 2019 1:16 pm

mem wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:30 am
Well any kind of free money, subsidy, incentive will certainly appeal to the psyche

To clarify it's not that I'm advocating for some kind of socialist free money intervention, but if it comes down to spending x amount of dollars on some token electric buses from China I'd rather see that money going to something that directly will cut ignorant wood burning in mid/big cities...like temuco or los angeles. For me it's about the urban air pollution and ignorant wood burning is the giant major source of that...nothing else comes close. Not vehicles not factories nothing can even begin to approach wood burning for sheer air pollution.
Well said mem.

I have a house in the south out in the campo. I insulated the house to R-38. An airtight, insulated wood stove heats the kitchen, a catalytic propane gas heater warms the bathroom and the vented Toyotomi heater mentioned before heats the living area.
The bedrooms remain cool because we like to use blankets and comforters to keep warm in bed.

I’m fortunate to be able to cut my own firewood on my property and season it before burning. Everything is powered by a 3.5 kW solar panel system with battery storage.

I know that most people can’t live as we do but some of these things could surely be incorporated into city living like substituting a pellet stove for a wood stove and adding insulation.
The Toyotomi is fairly economical if used only in the morning and evening.
After the initial cost the solar panel system pays for itself.

Solar and/or wind power systems can certainly be used in cities as well as insulating houses. Propane is economical and cleaner than other carbon sources.
Subsidies could be used initially to encourage the use of all of the above and others could learn by example. It would be money well spent.
It can be done if the government would change their priorities.
Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.
allegedly said by Mark Twain

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41southchile
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Re: Wood burning for heat - what is needed to make it unnecessary?

Post by 41southchile » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:12 pm

needwaterandpeace wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 9:58 am
I don't get out much. All I see is the people in Valdivia. Most of them don't have trucks. I don't know if they have chainsaws. They have to have stuff delivered. Electricity is generally a very spendy (inefficient) way to heat--but if the government offered incentives to insulate, and also get pellet stoves, and then there was an effort to help the people understand that not only are pellets cheaper, but that they are less work, and less pollution, = a better life for them now, and a better future for their children, do you suppose that might appeal to the Chilean psyche?
Doesn't work like that....the Chilean psyche (or the government here, for that matter)
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

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41southchile
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Re: Wood burning for heat - what is needed to make it unnecessary?

Post by 41southchile » Wed Oct 16, 2019 2:20 pm

mem wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 11:30 am
Well any kind of free money, subsidy, incentive will certainly appeal to the psyche

To clarify it's not that I'm advocating for some kind of socialist free money intervention, but if it comes down to spending x amount of dollars on some token electric buses from China I'd rather see that money going to something that directly will cut ignorant wood burning in mid/big cities...like temuco or los angeles. For me it's about the urban air pollution and ignorant wood burning is the giant major source of that...nothing else comes close. Not vehicles not factories nothing can even begin to approach wood burning for sheer air pollution.
The trouble with you guys and your ideas is they are too sensible and the are too logical.
Btw it's not only poor people burning wet wood , theres plenty of German descended Agricultors that cut down trees, mostly because they are so inefficient and lacking in imagination that for them cutting down century's old trees to burn the next week in the towns is the only way they think they can make money.
Btw in Puerto Varas they are fixing footpaths and streets that should have been fixed a decade ago, in fact there are so many othe screw ups that they cant fix now, that the wood issue is not going to be solved for another 20 or 30 years. I mean it took that long in New Zealand , so maybe more like 40 or 50 in Chile, we ain't in Kansas anymore.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

nosaj
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Re: Wood burning for heat - what is needed to make it unnecessary?

Post by nosaj » Sun Oct 20, 2019 2:22 am

There is another option that I havnt heard anyone talk about or use that often anywhere.. Rocket Mass Heaters.. They are extremely efficient and have basically no pollution if made correctly and they use very little wood to heat a large area for a long time. I would post a link but I'm still too new for that 😂🔗 but a quick Google of "rocket mass heaters" will give a wealth of information..

nosaj
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Re: Wood burning for heat - what is needed to make it unnecessary?

Post by nosaj » Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:18 am

needwaterandpeace wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 3:19 pm
https://commonsensehome.com/rocket-mass-heaters/

Nosaj, those look pretty good. But how do you clean the J? Do you have to take the whole thing apart?

And if they are so efficient and good, do people sell kits? Or are these all custom-builds?
So... most of them are custom builds.. Because it is normally made to fit in the space you have. I'm not sure anyone sells kits because the main thing about these is the "mass" and that obviously isn't something that can be shipped around.
There are many designs around and some have a small tray to catch any ash at the bottom of the J tube.. But the actual riser of the J tube burns extremely hot so would not really need cleaning ever.. More likely scenario is that if it's made from steel then it would burn out over time. That's why it's best to use refractory bricks..

Once I move to Puerto Varas it's the 1st thing I'm going build.. Ill post some pics on this thread once I get it done..

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