Climate changing in Chile

General topics related to Living in Chile
at46
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by at46 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:07 pm

Julito wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:39 pm
No that´s how university based "research" works and how some of it´s paid for, whether by govt grants or funding from corporations. It´s been that way for eons. He´s not writing about nothing.
I don´t pretend to know climate or any other science but am comfortable with my own analogy that if 90% of structural engineers advised not to drive across a bridge because it´s unsafe, and 10% said it was perfectly safe, only a fool would drive across it.
Unfortunately, the deluge of uni type 'science' drowns out the 0.01% of real science. Thus you're safer listening to what your grandmother told you rather than the 99.99% of today's scientists. She had your interests at heart. Can you say that about a scientist you know?

frozen-north
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by frozen-north » Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:40 pm

at46 wrote:
Well, that's the thing. People already pointed out to you it's your faith you're prozelitizing here.
Well, the title of this thread is 'Climate changing in Chile', and you are not obliged to read it. Of course, you can always provide some of the science that you say has been missing.

at46
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by at46 » Sat Aug 24, 2019 10:41 pm

frozen-north wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:40 pm
at46 wrote:
Well, that's the thing. People already pointed out to you it's your faith you're prozelitizing here.
Well, the title of this thread is 'Climate changing in Chile', and you are not obliged to read it. Of course, you can always provide some of the science that you say has been missing.
Well, this winter was warm. I kinda like that :) I think that's pretty much all anyone can say to stay on topic here :)

I don't know if science ever recovered after being raped by Gore in order to become the king of global carbon credit trading. So I don't have anything to give you, sorry.

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41southchile
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by 41southchile » Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:52 am

Britkid wrote:
Sat Aug 24, 2019 6:18 pm
I'd like to tell you all a little about the story of Extinction Rebellion.

Being polite doesn't work. Being annoying (preachy) does.
Um , No it doesn't. What ? because they got half hearted commitments from the government that were nowhere near their real goals (2045 instead of 2025 demanded by ER, even 2045 is looking doubtful) commitments that govt probably would have done anyway under the Paris agreement , to give Extinction Rebellion credit for that is being very generous to say the least. Just looking online even left wing newspapers say they didn't really achieve any of their goals.
Yeah I get the whole squeaky wheel gets the oil argument but being preachy doesn't work it just pisses people off . I also get the communal psychosis that sets in and people think they world is on the brink of destruction and they think they need to repent and spread the word to feel like they are making a difference so they can have some peace with themselves.
Point is, believe what you want that's fine, do what you like, just dont fool yourself into believing being preachy and annoying works to convince others of your point of view and evidence you have, if you feel like wasting your own energy (that could possibly used more constructively in other things) is the right way to go, fine, just dont expect it to go down well with everyone.
When I went back to NZ last summer there were ads on TV with a husband making snide remarks about the wife smoking cigarettes and a couple of others in the series along the same theme. The tagline was something like nagging or preaching at loved ones to give up smoking doesn't work, they know the evidence , now it's up to them, which I thought was an interesting approach.
People are starting to reach peak prechiness in many things nowadays, opinion pieces, articles, tv shows , etc etc . Yet despite this there are lots of people sitting on the fence that would like to do the right thing and pollute less etc. They dont actually need lecturing to or convincing like you say, they make choices by folliwing examples and do things by encouragement and wanting to be trendy etc, not because they are being preached to.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

frozen-north
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by frozen-north » Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:00 pm

41southchile wrote:
When I went back to NZ last summer there were ads on TV with a husband making snide remarks about the wife smoking cigarettes and a couple of others in the series along the same theme. The tagline was something like nagging or preaching at loved ones to give up smoking doesn't work, they know the evidence , now it's up to them, which I thought was an interesting approach.
If the ad is as you describe it, then it is making a logical mistake. If the one smoking was a stranger in the street, the wife would not say anything. If the one smoking is emotionally close, then the dynamic is very different. Also, if the husband was smoking inside the house, and the wife, or anybody else in the family, suffered from asthma, for example, they would have the right to object to the smoking.

Julito
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by Julito » Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:21 pm

Here you go at46, some university research breakthroughs. It looks like real scientific research to me, and that´s only the little old UK.

https://www.independent.co.uk/student/s ... 57202.html

Here´s 100 more out of UK Universities. Admittedly there were probably a few grandmothers among the researchers, just not mine :)

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2 ... cation.uk2

I don't have time to look further afield but am in no doubt as to what the results would be.

at46
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by at46 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:18 pm

Julito wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:21 pm
Here you go at46, some university research breakthroughs. It looks like real scientific research to me, and that´s only the little old UK.

https://www.independent.co.uk/student/s ... 57202.html

Here´s 100 more out of UK Universities. Admittedly there were probably a few grandmothers among the researchers, just not mine :)
Nice list, thank you. Pero (there's always a pero, isn't there?) one third of these were made before your grandmother was even born. Which only proves my point about 99.99% of the current 'science' being junk.

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fraggle092
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by fraggle092 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:36 pm

For decades now. the public has been made aware of all the real environmental problems that have been aired in this topic. And to give one example, as a response, engineers have produced more efficient, less polluting vehicles.

But the gains in fuel economy simply allowed people to buy bigger cars, the SUV is the most popular type these days. Even sedans like the Honda Accord suffer from bloat. So, despite everyone having some degree of environmental awareness these days, the warnings go unheeded. When it comes to environmental responsibility Vs. comfort, the latter wins every time, and "shaming" or punishing this behaviour would only cause more resentment and social disobedience.

The Yellow Jacket protests in France were triggered by proposed fuel tax increases needed to implement an alternative energy strategy that a lot of those protesters probably approved of - until they realized that it was going to cost them.

So, having said all that what's the solution? Time, IMHO. As energy and the costs of raw materials rise, Bloatmobiles will become prohibitively expensive. These are our Golden Years, or perhaps Indian Summer.

Just my own 2 cents worth...for what its worth.
'
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Bienvenidos a Chaqueteo City.

Après moi, le déluge

ghibli
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by ghibli » Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:57 pm

You guys are all so depressing in your attack mode "is it or isn't it." Can't we just agree to pick up the garbage? Chill? Be nicer to each other? Clean up your room?

Julito
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by Julito » Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:19 am

You assume too much Amigo, my Grandmothers were born twixt 1900 - 1910.

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41southchile
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by 41southchile » Mon Aug 26, 2019 8:41 am

ghibli wrote:
Sun Aug 25, 2019 7:57 pm
You guys are all so depressing in your attack mode "is it or isn't it." Can't we just agree to pick up the garbage? Chill? Be nicer to each other? Clean up your room?
Attack mode?
Ah yes , let's all be lovey dovey and hold hands shall we ? I certainly dont want anyone disagreeing or attacking me, I just want to feel safe, so let's all get along and that will solve the worlds problems.
FYI most of the time someone disagrees with me or has a different belief from me I learn something, my argument is either shown to have serious flaws and I can re evaluate my position or it shows I am on the mark. Eliminating or ignoring arguments of those with counter positions is only weakening my argument , so many people dont realise that and just want their safe space or dont want anyone to challenge their ideas.

Here's an article I read last week that sums it up and the bs that is currently going on in society with people wanting to live in their own little bubbles and not hearing alternative views because it could offend them or because they are too arrogant and pig headed.

Who is the greater threat to free speech: President Donald Trump or campus radicals? Left and right disagree furiously about this. But it is the wrong question, akin to asking which of the two muggers currently assaulting you is leaving more bruises. What matters is that big chunks of both left and right are assaulting the most fundamental of liberties—the ability to say what you think. This is bad both for America and the world.

The outrages come so fast that it is easy to grow inured to them. The president of the United States calls truthful journalism “fake news” and reporters “enemies of the people”. In June, when a reporter from Time pressed him about the Mueller inquiry, he snapped, “You can go to prison,” justifying his threat by speculating that Time might publish a picture of a letter from Kim Jong Un he had just displayed. Mr Trump cannot actually lock up reporters, because America’s robust constitution prevents him. But his constantly reiterated contempt for media freedom reassures autocrats in other countries that he will not stop them from locking up their own critics. On the contrary, when Saudi Arabia blatantly murdered Jamal Khashoggi, a Washington Post contributor, in its consulate in Istanbul last year, Mr Trump was quick to reassure the Saudi crown prince that this would not affect any oil or arms deals.

Campus radicals are less powerful than the president. But he will be gone by 2021 or 2025. By contrast, the 37% of American college students who told Gallup that it was fine to shout down speakers of whom they disapprove will be entering the adult world in their millions. So will the 10% who think it acceptable to use violence to silence speech they deem offensive. Such views are troubling, to put it mildly. It does not take many threats of violence to warn people off sensitive topics. And although the left usually insist that the only speech they wish to suppress is the hateful sort, they define this rather broadly. “Hateful” views may include opposing affirmative action, supporting a Republican or suggesting that America is a land of opportunity. Mansfield University of Pennsylvania bans students from sending any message that might be “annoying”. In some Republican states, meanwhile, public universities face pressure to keep climate change off the curriculum. Small wonder most American students think their classmates are afraid to say what they think.

As societies have grown more politically polarised, many people have come to believe that the other side is not merely misguided but evil. Their real goal is to oppress minorities (if they are on the right) or betray the United States (if they are on the left). To this Manichean view, campus radicals have added a second assertion: that words are in themselves often a form of violence, and that hearing unwelcome ideas is so traumatic, especially for disadvantaged groups, that the first job of a university is to protect its faculty and students from any such encounter. Some add that any campus official who disputes this dogma, or who inadvertently violates the ever-expanding catalogue of taboos, should be hounded out of their job.

These ideas are as harmful as they are wrongheaded. Free speech is the cornerstone not only of democracy but also of progress. Human beings are not free unless they can express themselves. Minds remain narrow unless exposed to different viewpoints. Ideas are more likely to be refined and improved if vigorously questioned and tested. Protecting students from unwelcome ideas is like refusing to vaccinate them against measles. When they go out into the world, they will be unprepared for its glorious but sometimes challenging diversity.

The notion that people have a right not to be offended is also pernicious. Offence is subjective. When states try to police it, they encourage people to take offence, aggravating social divisions. One of the reasons the debate about transgender rights in the West has become so poisonous is that some people are genuinely transphobic. Another is that some transgender activists accuse people who simply disagree with them of hate speech and call the cops on them. Laws criminalising “hate speech” are inevitably vague and open to abuse. This is why authoritarian regimes are adopting them so eagerly. A new Venezuelan law, for example, threatens those who promote hatred with 20 years in prison—and prosecutors use it against those who accuse ruling-party officials of corruption.

Governments should regulate speech minimally. Incitement to violence, narrowly defined, should be illegal. So should persistent harassment. Most other speech should be free. And it is up to individuals to try harder both to avoid causing needless offence, and to avoid taking it.
“Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored.”

at46
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by at46 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:29 pm

Julito wrote:
Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:19 am
You assume too much Amigo, my Grandmothers were born twixt 1900 - 1910.
Jaja, mine too :) But my hope was that you'd see my point rather than getting stuck on your grandmothers' actual dates of birth.

Anyway, in a list of 10 discoveries one - climate change - doesn't qualify, imho, and your article actually says so as well:

"Of course, it can’t be claimed to have been ‘discovered’, but someone who did a great deal to expand the subject was Hubert Lamb of the University of East Anglia. He was one of the first to suggest that climate change could affect humans within their lifespan". Facepalm.

And these are the dates of other discoveries:

1952
1928
1981
1997
1910
1953
1948
1985
1957

Which is like listing victorious battles of your people over the last one thousand years. Well, it does make you feel good about yourself and helps bring the moneyed Chinese as a bonus so you can't complain.

The absence of the two biggest UK uni names on the list - Oxford and Camridge - is kinda telling though.

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