electric vehicles in chile

General topics related to Living in Chile
Post Reply
User avatar
fraggle092
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1466
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:35 pm
Location: In Chile

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by fraggle092 » Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:29 am

Britkid wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:16 am
Saying you want to avoid transition to renewables to save money only makes sense if you are thinking both selfishly and short term and don't care about future generations or even your own long term future.
This continual moralizing on about Renewables, and by adopting gimcrack "solutions" like battery cars, allows some to virtuously signal that they are Saving the Planet while in fact carrying on pretty much as usual. Unfortunately the Big Picture is a lot bleaker.

Holocene Extinction:
..rampant biodiversity loss is a "silent killer" as dangerous as global warming, but has received little attention by comparison...
.
Nearly 30 years ago, researching for a Guardian series on global population pressures, I interviewed the zoologist Desmond Morris. During that interview, Morris said something that was hard to forget. “We have to recognise,” he said, “that human beings may be becoming an infestation on the planet.”
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... estruction
Rainforests are the last great reservoirs of biodiversity, but they will have to be cleared and turned over to human settlement or food production. What is left of wilderness in the world will be made over to green desert.
https://www.newstatesman.com/node/155967

Incidentally, Douglas Tomkins acquired all that land in the South of Chile to protect it from depredation by keeping settlers out, its not just some sort of touristy eco-park. He foresaw the way the world is headed...

Renewables? Too little and way too late.

Finally some humour, (well I thought so anyway)
The Prius might be the most perfect white product ever. It’s expensive, gives the idea that you are helping the environment, and requires no commitment/changes other than money.
My avatar is there for a reason.....
Après moi, le déluge

Britkid
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1709
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:59 pm
Location: Talagante area, Chile
Contact:

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:17 pm

It's true that some people seem to think that hybrid cars and getting rid of some plastic straws and taking shorter showers will save the planet whereas the reality is we need to make more drastic changes to our lives and economies.

That still doesn't make it wrong to get a hybrid car though. Better to do 10% of what's needed to "save the planet" rather than 0%.

bert.douglas
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 502
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:42 am
Location: San Diego, California

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by bert.douglas » Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:59 pm

It is arrogant to think that we can "save the planet".
George Carlin said it best.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W33HRc1A6c
The good stuff starts at about 1:30 into the video.

User avatar
fraggle092
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1466
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:35 pm
Location: In Chile

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by fraggle092 » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:08 pm

bert.douglas wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:59 pm
It is arrogant to think that we can "save the planet".
Arrogant and ignorant. We will be very lucky to save ourselves, never mind the planet....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons
Britkid wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 7:17 pm
That still doesn't make it wrong to get a hybrid car though. Better to do 10% of what's needed to "save the planet" rather than 0%.
Of course not. But our whole way of living is based round consumption, endless economic growth and cheap energy.
Its the way our society is set up, and we cannot opt out. One less obvious example: I had to make a couple of Bitcoin transactions recently, much against my will, to a Chinese retailer. Bitcoin Mining consumes obscene amounts of fossil fuel energy for no good reason. But nobody's condemning it (except for the investors who lost their money...)
Bitcoin’s biggest problem is not even its massive energy consumption, but that the network is mostly fueled by coal-fired power plants in China. Coal-based electricity is available at very low rates in this country. Even with a conservative emission factor, this results in an extreme carbon footprint for each unique Bitcoin transaction
https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption
Après moi, le déluge

Britkid
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1709
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:59 pm
Location: Talagante area, Chile
Contact:

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:38 pm

George Carlin's video is just awful. For example saying that since many species die out anyway we shouldn't try to save them is just stupid. That's like saying that since rape has been going on since the dawn of time we shouldn't ever try to stop any rapes.

When people say "save the planet" it's not meant literally. It's just a shorthand for something like "protect the atmosphere and water and soils that are needed for life". But of course anti-environmentalists like to take that literally so they can have a semantic argument to distract from the real issues where they can't really win the debate.

George Carlin is basically saying that since greater disasters have occurred and will again without humanity, we shouldn't bother to try and stop the smaller environmental destruction that's happening, because it's less. Again, where does this logic lead us. If a 100 children are trapped in a burning school, do we not bother to save them on the basis that larger numbers have children have died and will do so again? Should we never help an old lady across the road because it's small in the grand scheme of things. It's just an excuse to do nothing.

As for plastic, I have seen birds and dogs eating it several times. Had to run over and stop them in some cases. People that look in dead sea animals now routinely find plastic inside.

Perhaps his real point is he is a selfish bastard and he doesn't give a fuck. That's the only way this video makes any sense.

I saw another video of him once and he was making unfunny sexual jokes about teenage and pre-pubescent girls. I think he was an asshole and possibly a fool.

bert.douglas
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 502
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:42 am
Location: San Diego, California

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by bert.douglas » Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:36 am

Bitcoin is an experiment that is still under development.

The hash-rate is way down recently. This means that a lot less energy is being wasted. Many of those chinese bitcoin miners have gone broke and are no longer operating.

Also the transaction fees are back down to negligible amounts. Technical improvements have reduced the both the size and number of transactions.

My opinion is that bitcoin has some fundamental design flaws, that limit transaction volume and waste energy. However, it is good code. Well tested and reliable. Changes are very carefully and slowly introduced after much testing. A huge number of good programmers are working on it. All the development is done in the open.

Most of the other cryptocurrencies are pretty bad in comparison. Only a few programmers. Working in secret. Few resources for testing. If they aren't outright scams, they are full of bugs.

at46
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 893
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:13 pm
Location: Vancouver/Santiago

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by at46 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 9:45 am

bert.douglas wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:36 am
Bitcoin is an experiment that is still under development.

The hash-rate is way down recently. This means that a lot less energy is being wasted. Many of those chinese bitcoin miners have gone broke and are no longer operating.

Also the transaction fees are back down to negligible amounts. Technical improvements have reduced the both the size and number of transactions.

My opinion is that bitcoin has some fundamental design flaws, that limit transaction volume and waste energy. However, it is good code. Well tested and reliable. Changes are very carefully and slowly introduced after much testing. A huge number of good programmers are working on it. All the development is done in the open.

Most of the other cryptocurrencies are pretty bad in comparison. Only a few programmers. Working in secret. Few resources for testing. If they aren't outright scams, they are full of bugs.
And, in the spirit of full disclosure, how much bitcoin do you own? :)

User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 17668
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:02 pm
Location: Frutillar, Chile
Contact:

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by admin » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:19 am

the fundemental flaw, among many, with bitcoin was the whole mining game. It was an interesting experiment, but was not needed to have a crypto currency. at least the amount of energy waisted on it.
Spencer Global Chile: Legal, relocation, and Investment assistance in Chile.
For more information visit: https://www.spencerglobal.com

From USA and outside Chile dial 1-917-727-5985 (U.S.), in Chile dial 65 2 42 1024 or by cell 747 97974.

User avatar
fraggle092
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1466
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:35 pm
Location: In Chile

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by fraggle092 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:27 am

bert.douglas wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:36 am
The hash-rate is way down recently. This means that a lot less energy is being wasted.
That is disingenuous. Its only true because many "investors" lost their asses, and are now steering clear of cryptocurrencies.
B̶i̶t̶c̶o̶i̶n̶,̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶s̶t̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶ ̶t̶r̶a̶d̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶c̶l̶o̶s̶e̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶i̶r̶ ̶h̶i̶s̶t̶o̶r̶i̶c̶a̶l̶ ̶l̶o̶w̶s̶ (Not true, as pointed out further down by AT46, but certainly very low compared to peak value)
.
Bitcoin Price Chart (BTC) Coinbase.png
https://www.coinbase.com/price/bitcoin
Après moi, le déluge

User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 17668
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:02 pm
Location: Frutillar, Chile
Contact:

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by admin » Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:46 am

Britkid wrote:
Sat Dec 22, 2018 10:38 pm
George Carlin's video is just awful. For example saying that since many species die out anyway we shouldn't try to save them is just stupid. That's like saying that since rape has been going on since the dawn of time we shouldn't ever try to stop any rapes.

When people say "save the planet" it's not meant literally. It's just a shorthand for something like "protect the atmosphere and water and soils that are needed for life". But of course anti-environmentalists like to take that literally so they can have a semantic argument to distract from the real issues where they can't really win the debate.

George Carlin is basically saying that since greater disasters have occurred and will again without humanity, we shouldn't bother to try and stop the smaller environmental destruction that's happening, because it's less. Again, where does this logic lead us. If a 100 children are trapped in a burning school, do we not bother to save them on the basis that larger numbers have children have died and will do so again? Should we never help an old lady across the road because it's small in the grand scheme of things. It's just an excuse to do nothing.

As for plastic, I have seen birds and dogs eating it several times. Had to run over and stop them in some cases. People that look in dead sea animals now routinely find plastic inside.

Perhaps his real point is he is a selfish bastard and he doesn't give a fuck. That's the only way this video makes any sense.

I saw another video of him once and he was making unfunny sexual jokes about teenage and pre-pubescent girls. I think he was an asshole and possibly a fool.
ah cut carlin some slack. he was just dumbing down the 'anthropic principle' to something an audiance could grasp and get a chucle out of, without needing to think too hard about it. he does it with a lot of his material. he takes a complex subject, and turns it in to a comedy routine.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle
Spencer Global Chile: Legal, relocation, and Investment assistance in Chile.
For more information visit: https://www.spencerglobal.com

From USA and outside Chile dial 1-917-727-5985 (U.S.), in Chile dial 65 2 42 1024 or by cell 747 97974.

at46
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 893
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:13 pm
Location: Vancouver/Santiago

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by at46 » Sun Dec 23, 2018 11:15 am

fraggle092 wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 10:27 am
bert.douglas wrote:
Sun Dec 23, 2018 1:36 am
The hash-rate is way down recently. This means that a lot less energy is being wasted.
That is disingenuous. Its only true because many "investors" lost their asses, and are now steering clear of cryptocurrencies.
Bitcoin, and the rest are trading close to their historical lows.
.
Bitcoin Price Chart (BTC) Coinbase.png

https://www.coinbase.com/price/bitcoin
A historical low for bitcoin would be more like US$ 10, not US$ 4,000. Just saying :) But given that it has no 'intrinsic' value, even US$10 is too much for it, imho. It's only value is speculative given how it moves up and down a thousand dollars every week or even every few days. It's an evil thing :)
https://ibb.co/PYd8xrV

mem
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 462
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by mem » Sun Dec 23, 2018 12:28 pm

Getting back to electric cars in chile...from a practical incremental perspective. Each vehicle needs to carry its fuel supply with it, whether it's a tank of propane, natural gas liquid or compressed, or bencina or diesel or batteries or some combination of multiple types such as hybrids

All of these fuel types require electricity for the supply line. Even with natural gas the compressed form requires immense amounts of electricity for compression let alone the creation and transport costs.

It makes sense to me in light of how electricity is the backbone of all these fuel types, that the drive is to cut out the middle mem and just use electricity from soup to nuts with batteries storing the fuel.
I dont see a better option if you want to be able to drive a vehicle that is not direct human or direct animal powered

With natural gas it would actually be better to have centralized plants that burn the natural gas to generate electricity for the grid.

Post Reply