electric vehicles in chile

General topics related to Living in Chile
Post Reply
User avatar
fraggle092
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1469
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:35 pm
Location: In Chile

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by fraggle092 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:42 am

nwdiver wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:58 pm
Electric cars, power from hydro......0 carbon emissions, Chile can do it, but is there the will?
The shit hits the fan when wishful thinking comes into contact with reality. Here is a local example where substantial emissions reduction and energy savings could be achieved right now without recourse to any of the expensive, clunky, green paraphernalia currently being touted as Planet Savers. Just get rid of Collectivos, and mandate their replacement by buses, even electric ones if you want. Its as plausible a suggestion as some of the other ideas already mentioned in this thread.

Collectivos cause various flavours of contamination, in particular the cancerogenic emissions generated by diesel motors. Also they are an inherently energy-inefficient form of public transportation, and also cause other road users to waste energy through congestion.

But any government that wanted to change, or even regulate this "service" would have a fight on its hands, one that it would lose. Another Yellow Jacket scenario....
.
_acf7769.jpg
Après moi, le déluge

at46
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 893
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:13 pm
Location: Vancouver/Santiago

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by at46 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 1:30 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:42 am
nwdiver wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:58 pm
Electric cars, power from hydro......0 carbon emissions, Chile can do it, but is there the will?
The shit hits the fan when wishful thinking comes into contact with reality. Here is a local example where substantial emissions reduction and energy savings could be achieved right now without recourse to any of the expensive, clunky, green paraphernalia currently being touted as Planet Savers. Just get rid of Collectivos, and mandate their replacement by buses, even electric ones if you want. Its as plausible a suggestion as some of the other ideas already mentioned in this thread.

Collectivos cause various flavours of contamination, in particular the cancerogenic emissions generated by diesel motors. Also they are an inherently energy-inefficient form of public transportation, and also cause other road users to waste energy through congestion.

But any government that wanted to change, or even regulate this "service" would have a fight on its hands, one that it would lose. Another Yellow Jacket scenario....
.
_acf7769.jpg
Trams would be the best alternative though, not buses. They're electric and with a service life of 30-50 years. Because they don't swerve, given they move on rails, it makes it very easy for people to incorporate them into their travel routines. It's like stepping on and off a metro train. You know exactly where it's going to stop, you know that it has no ingress/egress obstacles (except other bodies, of course), you know it's acceleration and deceleration speeds. It's the most user-friendly land-based public transit system. No fumes, noise or dust either, and they can have bike and bulky cargo carriers, while the rails can be installed literally anywhere in order to give people 5-10 minute walking time to/from their final destination.

But that's only half the benefits. The other half has to do with how trams restore city streets and return them to humans. With less car or ugly bus traffic, the streets are less dangerous and cleaner for walking and cycling and have much more attractive store fronts. In Santiago a lot of the barrios would see property values rise 30-60% thanks just to trams, provided there's an extensive network.

Trams are probably also cheaper than these newfangled electric buses, even China-made, and they're pretty simple technologically. Meaning Chile could actually take part in their production instead of hooking itself up completely to foreign technology.

Britkid
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1712
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:59 pm
Location: Talagante area, Chile
Contact:

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:05 pm

Colectivos on average contain 3 people or 4 including the driver. Whereas cars contain an average of about 1.5 people I think. Maybe 2 in Chile. Colectivos are also small cars that don't take up parking spaces during the day, whereas individual's cars are often SUVs and so on that emit more and fill up parking spaces. So colectivos are at least better than cars for society.

Your idea of replacing colectivos with buses sounds like a reasonable one, though.

---3 colectivos take up more space on the road than a micro/bus by far, after allowing for space between vehicles, and still transport less passengers.
---With colectivos you have the frustration of waiting for an empty one while other go by full.
---Buses are probably environmentally better.

Buses have a mpg of about 6 ish, (presumably better for the small micros). So you only need an average of more than about 6 passengers to beat a car with 1.5 people in terms of emissions per person. You'd need to get to more like 12 passengers per bus to beat a colectivo (i.e. 4 times higher than a colectivo's mpg and a colectivo has 3 passengers so 12 for emissions equality say). And buses in Chile probably on average have more like 30 passengers, so with a quick back of the envelope calculation I'd guess buses beat colectivos environmentally. This is a petrol calculation, but presumably it's similar for diesel.

You can't get rid of them overnight. This is people's livelihood. However steadily phasing them out over 20-30 years may happen regardless, because you don't see young people wanting to take this job. If Chile gets a high immigration level then this will become an immigrant job, if immigration levels are kept low we will see collectivos on the decline perhaps anyway.

User avatar
fraggle092
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1469
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:35 pm
Location: In Chile

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by fraggle092 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:29 pm

A collectivo is continually circulating, occupying scarce road space as well as energy for hours whilst in service; it cannot be compared to a private vehicle, not least because of the often brusque stop-go style of driving. Its basically a (very) small bus.

The point is that a Collectivo driver is self-employed, he sets his own hours (try finding one when it rains here, or when Chile is playing, or early am or late pm) Thanks to relatively high fares and cheap fuel, he can make a living without much exertion. And by bajando la bandera he gets to use the same vehicle for private use. So he´s doing fine, the last thing on his mind is Saving the Planet.

Any attempt to change this system would meet the usual levels of protest; blocked roads, burning tires, stoning the nice new trams or electric buses, or setting them on fire.
Britkid wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:05 pm
However steadily phasing them out over 20-30 years may happen regardless, because you don't see young people wanting to take this job.
A lot of retirees do this job, -ex cops and -ex miners. Who are getting a pension already (so much for unemployment.)
Don't see a future shortage of them.....

Anyway the Collectivo example was just that, one single case, point being its not easy for any government to make people change their slovenly, polluting ways. Roll on the Green Police.....
Après moi, le déluge

AnciaVagar
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 175
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:52 pm

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by AnciaVagar » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:37 pm

nwdiver wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:58 pm
Electric cars, power from hydro......0 carbon emissions, ...
Hydropower emits some carbon dioxide and lots of methane. The pseudo-enviro establishment conveniently omits methane from its list of pollutants but it is more than thirty times as potent as carbon dioxide.

And the construction phase of hydro releases even worse pollutants; battery production is much worse. Remember who was pushing diesel over the past twenty years? -- the same who are now pushing electric vehicles -- in both cases without regard for the known true emissions. Consider how much money is being made on the EV push, and by whom.

People believe jive only because they want to. “Zero emissions” is either a naive fantasy or a manipulative lie depending on who uttered the words. Every organism and every activity produce emissions.

How many more Chilean rivers will be reduced to a trickle? How much more pure Andean snow-melt will be needlessly lost to evaporation from reservoirs?

User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 17678
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:02 pm
Location: Frutillar, Chile
Contact:

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by admin » Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:26 pm

well your carbon footprint might literally be under foot: cement production is one of the largest polluters on the planet.

even bigger than the airline industry.

if the global concreate industry was a country, it would be the third biggest polluter after the u.s. and china.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-46455844
Spencer Global Chile: Legal, relocation, and Investment assistance in Chile.
For more information visit: https://www.spencerglobal.com

From USA and outside Chile dial 1-917-727-5985 (U.S.), in Chile dial 65 2 42 1024 or by cell 747 97974.

User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 17678
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:02 pm
Location: Frutillar, Chile
Contact:

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by admin » Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:20 pm

well there are some more moves to cut the carbone at the eletric plant level.

https://www.latercera.com/pulso/noticia ... 49921/amp/

would like a serious attempt to eliminate wood burning. at least in cities. at least inside any urban zone in chile. i am sure there will be plenty of complaints but it needs to be done.
Spencer Global Chile: Legal, relocation, and Investment assistance in Chile.
For more information visit: https://www.spencerglobal.com

From USA and outside Chile dial 1-917-727-5985 (U.S.), in Chile dial 65 2 42 1024 or by cell 747 97974.

User avatar
fraggle092
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1469
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:35 pm
Location: In Chile

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by fraggle092 » Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:57 pm

admin wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:20 pm
well there are some more moves to cut the carbone at the eletric plant level.
https://www.latercera.com/pulso/noticia ... 49921/amp/
What they don't mention is that it comes at a price. This article says an increase of infrastructure spending of 35% over current levels will be needed by 2030, which will increase energy costs by 20%. Guess who ends up paying for that...
Après moi, le déluge

Britkid
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1712
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:59 pm
Location: Talagante area, Chile
Contact:

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:07 am

Sometimes it's seems that there are no easy answers. Eliminating wood burning to reduce pollution, for instance, would likely lead to an increase in global warming since wood burning is low carbon or even neutral (I can never quite get my head around whether trees need to be replanted for wood burning to be carbon neutral).

I actually had no idea about the methane issue with hydropower. Hydropower doesn't produce methane or CO2 during the process of energy generation but I just read a few articles - it seems that the dams cause rotting vegetation. What was missing from what I read was what is the carbon footprint per unit of hydro electricity compared to say, natural gas. Hydro is still probably better than oil, fracked gas, and coal I'd bet.

But what's needed is more wind and more solar.

Britkid
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1712
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:59 pm
Location: Talagante area, Chile
Contact:

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:16 am

fraggle092 wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:57 pm
admin wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:20 pm
well there are some more moves to cut the carbone at the eletric plant level.
https://www.latercera.com/pulso/noticia ... 49921/amp/
What they don't mention is that it comes at a price. This article says an increase of infrastructure spending of 35% over current levels will be needed by 2030, which will increase energy costs by 20%. Guess who ends up paying for that...
Studies (such as the Stern report and a recent US government study) consistently show that decarbonizing the grid will be cheaper in the long term when we look beyond electricity cost and start to consider the costs of adapting to climate change such as building sea defences in low lying areas of cities, for example, and the costs of dealing with mass migration to give another example. Even if you don't care the slightest tiniest bit about the mass animal and human suffering and death caused by climate change, and purely want to think about money, low-carbon energy still wins as long as you think long term.

Saying you want to avoid transition to renewables to save money only makes sense if you are thinking both selfishly and short term and don't care about future generations or even your own long term future.

If coal, oil etc were taxed in order to offset the damage to society caused by global warming, pollution, oil spills, ecological destruction etc they would probably be more expensive than wind and solar.

Opposing transition to renewables is saying you want to save $1 today to as to lose $2 in the future and in the meantime trash the planet. It doesn't make any sense.

And, by the way, I am not conceding the point that renewables are more expensive in the short term. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't.

User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 17678
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:02 pm
Location: Frutillar, Chile
Contact:

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by admin » Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:55 pm

start thinking through the supply chain for wood in chile, and it does not look very efficient.

in the 10th region, most trees are not where the popoluation is. those have bern gone for a 100 years.

so, they cut wood 100+ km away from say puerto montt or puerto varas, or any city on route 5. up in the mountains or towards the coast.

the trees are always old growth, not pine or some other "quick growing" tree. much of it is illegal to cut, but no one is enforcing that really.

guy fires up a chain saw, two stroke hyper polluter. cuts the trees.

he hauls it out to the local road. just by this point, it has been stacked two to three times.

someone fires up an old diesel ultra polluting piece of crap of a truck. they load the wood. drive it a hundred km or so in to an urban area. one to two tanks of diesel per say 50 meters of wood.

they unload it either directly at the end users house, or at a local reseller. either way is restacked a couple of times in the process.

finaly the end user, or someone else has to split the wood to use it. i have seen the use a chain saw again, loosing say 10% of the wood in the process.

restack again once or twice.

finaly it gets picked up and put in the stove.

notice, at no time did the wood get more than a few months to dry. so either the end user needs to buy it, and store it or burn it as is. if they store it, that is hyper expensive urban property by the square meter that is being used to store it. not to mention the whole locking up money in wood for a couple years in advance. if they burn the wet wood as is, they are perhaps getting 25-50% water. they are burning more wood, to boil water.

all that, and no one is going back to reforest those old growth trees. at least not at the rate they are being consumed by the population growth.

all while not insulating their house, windows leak, doors still leak, etc. just boil more wood, putting more highly dangerious contaminates in the air that definitly will never be aborbed by some other tree. just everyone's lungs.

if they outlaw wood burning, the sale of insulation and thermal windows will rocket. irnony is, given the local climate, with those simple energy saving measures they would probably not need any source of heating for all but thecoldest month or two of the year.
Spencer Global Chile: Legal, relocation, and Investment assistance in Chile.
For more information visit: https://www.spencerglobal.com

From USA and outside Chile dial 1-917-727-5985 (U.S.), in Chile dial 65 2 42 1024 or by cell 747 97974.

at46
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 893
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:13 pm
Location: Vancouver/Santiago

Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by at46 » Thu Dec 20, 2018 6:24 pm

Britkid wrote:
Thu Dec 20, 2018 11:16 am
fraggle092 wrote:
Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:57 pm
admin wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 8:20 pm
well there are some more moves to cut the carbone at the eletric plant level.
https://www.latercera.com/pulso/noticia ... 49921/amp/
What they don't mention is that it comes at a price. This article says an increase of infrastructure spending of 35% over current levels will be needed by 2030, which will increase energy costs by 20%. Guess who ends up paying for that...
Studies (such as the Stern report and a recent US government study) consistently show that decarbonizing the grid will be cheaper in the long term when we look beyond electricity cost and start to consider the costs of adapting to climate change such as building sea defences in low lying areas of cities, for example, and the costs of dealing with mass migration to give another example. Even if you don't care the slightest tiniest bit about the mass animal and human suffering and death caused by climate change, and purely want to think about money, low-carbon energy still wins as long as you think long term.

Saying you want to avoid transition to renewables to save money only makes sense if you are thinking both selfishly and short term and don't care about future generations or even your own long term future.

If coal, oil etc were taxed in order to offset the damage to society caused by global warming, pollution, oil spills, ecological destruction etc they would probably be more expensive than wind and solar.

Opposing transition to renewables is saying you want to save $1 today to as to lose $2 in the future and in the meantime trash the planet. It doesn't make any sense.

And, by the way, I am not conceding the point that renewables are more expensive in the short term. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't.
I think one thing everyone can do about 'saving the planet' is stop buying cheap crap with planned obsolescence. I heard France recently adopted a law requiring consumer goods manufacturers to give a minimum of 5 year warranty on their products. If you do research on every item you buy to make sure you're buying something that lasts, you're benefiting yourself and 'the planet' way more than talking about unaffordable electrical cars or methane coming out of water reservoirs. Aren't we all made up of 95% water? :)

Post Reply