electric vehicles in chile

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at46
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by at46 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:10 am

mem wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:32 am
at46 wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:01 am
mem wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:05 pm
It's clear that propane or LNG is going to be cleaner, but how does it shake out in cost of mileage and range versus diesel/bencina/ev?

Is it really so easy and cheap to convert almost any car or suv to propane if not LNG?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_vehicle
Interesting link. Didn't really see much about mileage or range directly but was sufficiently discouraged about each if the forms drawbacks

Either you need a massive tank on the car larger than a regular fuel tank, or the tank you need has to be kept cold, or in the case of propane and there is a leak it can accumulate in a pocket under the car and then explode
Add to that I dont know of any LNG or CNG stations within 100km of where I live in region 9 and its DOA
Batteries are starting to look like the make more sense, especially when so much energy is needed just to operate a CNG station due to the extreme pressure needed.
I can see why in general the push is to do electric with batteries. In terms of the weight of the batteries versus the tanks for CNG/LNG I dont think that is much of a difference.
Natural gas in vehicles traditionally was a range/life extender/fuel cost saver. After conversion a typical small car retains it's petrol tank and becomes bi-fuel, so you'd have your 600 km range on petrol plus 400-500 km range on natural gas. Apart from the lower cost of purchase of natural gas, another important saving is the dramatically extended engine life.

I heard someone say it's not the speed of travel that excites people, it's the speed of acceleration. Natural gas vehicles lower that speed, while EVs raise it. That's obviously the foundation of Tesla's marketing campaign, to take just one notorious example. EV manufactures basically hook your body up to a sensation that's so desirable you'll pay through the nose to have it, wife and kids be damned.

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fraggle092
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by fraggle092 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:55 am

The Nissan Leaf has somehow acquired a $247.000 mysterious "gasto adicional" from one calculation to another. See previous screenshot....

OK, worked it out. The Gasto adicional compares to the lowest Gasto en Energía value in the table.
.
Comparador Consumo Vehicular.png
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at46
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by at46 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:24 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:49 am
Electric cars are still urban toys imho and would be impractical in the North of Chile, at least.
Right now they couldn't even get halfway from Santiago to La Serena (470 km) without needing at least one recharge. And you can bet that those obligatory "fast charges" along the way will cost a lot more than the domestic electricity rate specified below.

I cannot find how the actual driving range for these vehicles is calculated. Flat road, driver and one passenger? Ambient temperature? How about actual driving behaviour? Thinking of the lead-footed drivers here whose only idea is getting from A to B as quickly as possible.....
The Nissan Leaf range with a 75% battery of 120 km in summer that I quoted earlier is the actual user normal urban driving experience. In subzero temperature the range drops to 60 km.

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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:43 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:49 am
Electric cars are still urban toys imho and would be impractical in the North of Chile, at least.
Right now they couldn't even get halfway from Santiago to La Serena (470 km) without needing at least one recharge. And you can bet that those obligatory "fast charges" along the way will cost a lot more than the domestic electricity rate specified below.
Right now you couldn't get from Santiago to La Serena at all with an electric car, of course, since there aren't charging stations. (I suppose it's theoretically possible if you persuade someone to let you plug in to a regular socket and carry the right equipment with you for that? I wonder if anyone's ever tried it?)

I think if the charging takes 40-45 minutes then you need to be able to do a trip like that with only one charge, that means a range of >235km. That's a meal stop and such a long stop would be acceptable to people if you only have to do it once every 2- 3 hours.

If the charging takes 20-25 minutes, which might be possible, then I think 2 stops might be acceptable to people on that route. That means stopping every 2 hours or slightly less for a break which seems reasonable. That means a needed range of 160km, which is 100 miles.

In other words, >160km range means electric cars are more than city cars if there is a good network of really fast (20-25 min) chargers. If the chargers are slower, >235km is more realistic.

There are a lot of toll points on that route, I think about 5 or 6. If they could just have a special electric car lane where electric cars got to jump the queue and go by without paying that would give people more of a positive feel about the whole experience as well as helping to promote electric cars. If the government could organize this with the companies it wouldn't be that difficult or expensive.

Also, there are plenty of wind turbines by the road on that route. Could the charging stations be directly connected to these rather than the grid? That way, you'd have the ability to advertise completely clean energy rather than using grid electricity where we have only 70% less global warming, and still some pollution.

With a wind turbine, your global warming and pollution impact is cut by more like 95% (not 100% to allow for manufacture and transport of wind turbine).

In some ways it shouldn't matter too much how much time or cost it takes to drive between La Serena and Santiago since this distance trip is the kind of thing that people do a couple of times a year, so the cost and time related to the above issues is quite small compared to what we do on a daily basis.

However in practice I think being able to drive from Santiago to La Serena for similar or better cost and convenience as a petrol car will be a good indication that an inflection point in adoption has been reached for electric cars.
In 2014/2015 I blogged about my life in Chile. http://web.archive.org/web/201601121940 ... age_id=268

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fraggle092
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by fraggle092 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:19 pm

Britkid wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:43 pm
In some ways it shouldn't matter too much how much time or cost it takes to drive between La Serena and Santiago since this distance trip is the kind of thing that people do a couple of times a year, so the cost and time related to the above issues is quite small compared to what we do on a daily basis.
I know plenty of people who do that trip much more often. Santiago-Serena-Antofagasta and back is a common itinerary for Mining and service industry travel. Long distances to places with nothing much in between them.
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HybridAmbassador
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by HybridAmbassador » Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:58 pm

Tesla is going no JV in deploying its electric vehicles by manufacturing there in PRC along its battery partner Panasonic. So Xi jingpin is going suave for those new comers to establish factories there? And guess what, Toyota soon to debut circa 2020 Lithium "solid state battery" with its super-fast charging time of same or equal to as dispensing petrol or diesel fuel into internal combustion engine vehicle, that only taking approximate 3~4 minutes till full. Then Tesla will benefit dearly in its cars battery.

Toyota has selected a long time associate, Panasonic to help design-manufacture its revolutionary Solid State Battery. Panasonic main task is to manufacture the Solid States cheaply or least same cost as present Lithium batteries. My friends tells me that those charging time is based on 110 V. So imagine how fast will be if using 220 V.... I for sure will be replacing my Hybrids for Lithium Solid State Batteries cars before Fuel cell propellant !
Then you can do those long jaunt journeys across that long geography of Chile in no time. Let's go places with future technologized Toyota.
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fraggle092
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by fraggle092 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:15 pm

HybridAmbassador wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:58 pm
Let's go places with future technologized Toyota.
Hmmm...I feel that the world would be better if people did a bit less going places, and not just driving to them eiher.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... estruction
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by admin » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:20 am

fraggle092 wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 5:15 pm
HybridAmbassador wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:58 pm
Let's go places with future technologized Toyota.
Hmmm...I feel that the world would be better if people did a bit less going places, and not just driving to them eiher.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... estruction
it is why i have always said tourism is not "sustainable" form of economic development.

my wife and i were in europe last year. we went to a few of the better known tourist atractions, i had been to when i was about 20 years old. you can see the wear marks in marble from foot traffic, that was not there when i was 20, and marble that is a 1000+ years old. to stand at the moana lisa, with 15 person deep crowd of chinese tourists. you need a telaphoto lense just to see it, while in the same room (fyi, the most over rated piece of art on the planet). the whole experience realy turned me off from ever going back to any of the famious cities of the world.

politicians like to push tourism as some magic quick fix for jobs and the economy, but there are limits.
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eeuunikkeiexpat
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:01 am

Very glad to have visited Chichén Itzá, Uxmal, Machu Pichu, Cusco, Rapa Nui before the roped off and restricted areas and access were put on.
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Britkid
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:21 pm

As I mentioned before on another thread, Toyota has said 2030 is a more realistic time frame for solid state batteries. We can't wait that long to solve the current global warming situation.
In 2014/2015 I blogged about my life in Chile. http://web.archive.org/web/201601121940 ... age_id=268

Britkid
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:39 pm

eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:01 am
Very glad to have visited Chichén Itzá, Uxmal, Machu Pichu, Cusco, Rapa Nui before the roped off and restricted areas and access were put on.
I went to Machu Pichu in 2004. We got the first bus from the village up there. It left at 6am. We arrived at 5.55am and walked on the bus. Because we were on the first bus, to start with there was only 1 busload of people on the whole site for a while. Now I hear that you have to be there in the queue at midnight at queue all night if you want to be on that first bus. Travel gets worse all the time. It's just a fact of life. If we'd gone in the 1980s who knows we probably could have wandered around a semi deserted site even at 8am.

With the Mona Lisa the solution is to have the room open all night and charge a lower price to go and see it 11pm at night or 4am. In the middle of the day they need to maybe limit people to 5 minutes in the room and 30 seconds in front of the painting. If you want to stay longer you have to go before 10am or after 6pm. For the middle of the day (say 10am-6pm) charge $50 or require reservation a month in advance or have to prove you're French.

At the end of the day there is really no other solution to overcrowding other than charging very high prices or not allowing people in unless they reserve well in advance. Maybe one day it'll become necessary to do that for the whole of Venice. You either pay $100 just to enter a certain area of the city or you have to reserve a month in advance, or you have to show an Italian passport or residence card or talk fluently in native Italian to get past the check. Use the money to reduce crowds and pay for social programs to keep the locals happy.

And yet the fact remains that a lot of the crowding is at peak hours and in certain places. Go on a Tuesday in winter, or very early, or very late, and it can be better.

I also think people need to stop taking long haul travel for a week's vacation for global warming reasons. Take longer trips, but fly less often.
In 2014/2015 I blogged about my life in Chile. http://web.archive.org/web/201601121940 ... age_id=268

HybridAmbassador
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by HybridAmbassador » Mon Dec 17, 2018 2:09 pm

Britkid wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:21 pm
As I mentioned before on another thread, Toyota has said 2030 is a more realistic time frame for solid state batteries. We can't wait that long to solve the current global warming situation.
Britkid, the source you get from is "what you read in the press" My source is via my friends with-in. Imagined, already the top money maker Toyota, is going to rule next gen electric vehicle's energy source with Toyota's Solid State Battery. Tesla and the rest of EV makers will be buying from Toyota, my shares in it, will be very lucrative indeed.. But in meantime, you can go ahead and buy your inefficient electric vehicle now... Pay me now and pay me later again, as said current EV salesman, ha,ha,haa
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