electric vehicles in chile

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Britkid
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:16 am

If you look at the energy briefing the BBC did , you can see a little more detail https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-48186443 Follow this link and download a PDF.

The chart on page 163 from the CCC (UK Committee on Climate Change) shows onshore wind and solar PV global auction prices steadily falling and offshore wind has rapidly fallen to reach parity with fossil fuels. It shows prices falling below fossil fuel prices in all cases. It shows onshore wind at around 5 ($US) cents per kwH globally.

Nuclear is not included in this chart, however it is discussed later if you look at pages 170-171 it says that in 2013 the UK government signed a deal for a new nuclear power station at Hinkley Point for 9.25p/kWH, around 11-12$ cents. That was about the same price as wind, at that time, but wind is now cheaper than that. In fact many contracts have been signed at various different global locations in recent years to supply wind and solar at under half that. Saudi Arabia even managed to get someone to provide them solar power at 2.3 cents ($US) per kWH if you google it which was some sort of record low, of course there is a lot of sun there.

I don't know for sure but I guess that France's electricity program is cheaper because many of the power plants were built years ago when safety standards were lower and plants were cheaper and since then most of the capital has probably been paid off.

As for Ukraine, I don't really know what is going on there. But I know that a large chunk of nuclear costs is from a bunch of safety regulations and procedures that inflate the cost. Of course, they didn't bother with some of those in Ukraine and as a result had the worst nuclear disaster in history at Chernobyl.

But I'd be perfectly happy with building more nuclear so I'm not going to argue against it. As long as it isn't fossil fuels.

at46
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by at46 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:24 pm

Britkid wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:16 am
As for Ukraine, I don't really know what is going on there. But I know that a large chunk of nuclear costs is from a bunch of safety regulations and procedures that inflate the cost. Of course, they didn't bother with some of those in Ukraine and as a result had the worst nuclear disaster in history at Chernobyl.
I'll look at your links later, but quickly just for the record - the worst nuclear disaster in human history is Japanese Fukushima which was built using American technology by General Electric.

Britkid
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:37 pm

The reason I consider Chernobyl the worst is because the most people died (probably) - between 50 and thousands whereas Fukushima's death toll is more likely between 5 and hundreds (even allowing for people yet to die of cancer over the coming decades). Both the immediate death toll and the projected cancer deaths, albeit with huge uncertainty in the case of the latter, point to more deaths at Chernobyl. However, they are both pretty similar being the only two events to be given the Level 7 event classification of the International Nuclear Event Scale. So, we can probably agree that they are the worst two.

Anyway, as I've said before let's not focus on nuclear too much given the thread title is "electric vehicles in Chile". I've never heard any politician discussing adding nuclear to Chile.

Solar is more relevant to Chile. Here is a 15-minute video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=od5yWB5aE0c

at46
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by at46 » Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:55 pm

Britkid wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:37 pm
However, they are both pretty similar being the only two events to be given the Level 7 event classification of the International Nuclear Event Scale. So, we can probably agree that they are the worst two.
You didn't even mention Fukushima at all at first. How about that for a scientist? :) As well, you can't compare the unverified number of Chernobyl deaths to the unverified number of Fukushima deaths to call one worse than the other. One thing we know is that Chernobyl has been stabilized while Fukushima is a disaster in progress. Haven't you heard Japan is about to dump a million tons of radioactive water into the ocean? https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japa ... SKCN1VV0CC

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41southchile
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by 41southchile » Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:47 pm

Britkid wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 8:56 am
Plausible to say fossil fuels in the past were a net gain, but past and future are different.

Biomass has a huge downside of high land use, while hydro has ecological issues but still beats coal and oil.

Solar and wind needed public subsidies to get going in the 1990s and 2000s, that's true, but those public subsidies eventually let to a situation where that led to market development and they are now competitive on their own.

It's a myth that the public oppose onshore wind, at least in the case of the UK, where latest polls show about 80% support it.

Now keep in mind in England there are villages everywhere, and you can't put those turbines out of sight, and you still get those numbers of 80%. In the case of Chile, there are many, many places to put more turbines far away from populations.

The other good news is that offshore wind is now coming to price parity with other sources of energy because they have managed to offset the additional costs of offshore somehow, I think by building up economies of scale with projects of large turbines.

I'm not that optimistic overall. The transition to renewable electric grids and electric cars is very likely to happen over the next 30-50 years given price arguments alone, but it needs more government action (taxes, cap and trade, international deals) in the next 5-10 years to avert disaster.
Past and present and future are different, you are right. Wonder why we get so many idiots trying to apply today's norms to what happened in the past then? And condemning those for their actions they thought were right or acceptable at the time, or those politivos that keep trying to feed off shit in the past to stay relevant today (sorry off topic)

Is it a myth that people oppose wind towers? Must be a special breed in England then where they welcome them, because in Canada (where there is a moratorium on new construction in Ontario I believe) New Zealand there is opposition in many places , the same in the states in some places, it's not that much of a myth.

I think the offshore wind farm point has been replied to, yes they are more expensive than onshore by a large margin according to a documentary I saw not long ago interviewing a developer of wind farm projects.

Anyway I think we will have to agree to disagree on many points.
Btw Nuclear power plant plans were established and ready to go in East Santiago a few decades ago, right on a fault line it turned out, but it went no where in the end. Even NZ had plans in the 70s, which I guess takes us back to the common theme. Nearly Everyone opposes different energy alternatives but they all still want the convenience of modern life and comforts but without the fossil fuels, that's the sort of illogical behavior you are dealing with today in this transformation that is eventually going to take place, and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
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Britkid
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:56 pm

Page 163 of the BBC briefing has offshore wind at around 17 (US) cents per kW in 2018 (which is expensive) falling to 12 cents per W house in 2019 and projecting 7-8 cents in 2020. It cites the CCC and says it is global auction prices. I am not sure if the 7-8 cents for 2020 is a forecast or based on bids already put in, but the 7-8 cents would be quite good. Still more expensive than onshore wind.

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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:07 pm

41southchile wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 11:47 pm
Everyone opposes different energy alternatives but they all still want the convenience of modern life and comforts but without the fossil fuels, that's the sort of illogical behavior you are dealing with today
One of the problems of climate change is that people perceive the needed changes are some sort of altruistic sacrifice, which mostly isn't true.

Less flights means less airport queues, less time crushed into your tiny plane seat, and more time on holiday to relax at your hotel, which is now a 4* hotel since you saved money by having a local vacation.

Less meat means less fat and cholesterol, and more than half of people can hardly or not at all tell the difference in taste with the new vegan Beyond and Impossible burgers coming out. Are avocados, mushrooms, pasta, vegetarian pizza really that disgusting? I don't think so.

Less consumption and minimalism means more money in the bank and you get to retire earlier and spend more time with your family. Or it means you can get to save up money, adjust your spending levels to a low, and then quit your corporate job you don't even like and dare to do what you love.

Electric cars are less noisy, smoother and less smelly, with more instant responding acceleration.

Cycling and walking more keeps you fit, and saves money on your gym membership.

Solar panels and geothermal heaters do cost a chunk of money up front, but pay themselves back in the long run.

These life changes are not making your life better or worse. It will just be different.

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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by frozen-north » Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:53 am

Britkid wrote:
Less meat means less fat and cholesterol, and more than half of people can hardly or not at all tell the difference in taste with the new vegan Beyond and Impossible burgers coming out.

Is meatless meat really better for your health and the planet?

"This has nothing to do with trying to solve the problems of our food system. This is just about trying to create new niches and new hype to sell to consumers," Jim Thomas told The Sunday Edition's Michael Enright.


https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thesundayediti ... -1.5283185

Britkid
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:32 pm

Puerto Varas has just opened its first charging point as part of a deployment by Saesa, the electricity company. They are offering free charging to start with, and offering to help with home charger installation (I don't see any specific details about what they mean here).

The Saesa network locations are Temuco, Pucón, Loncoche, Panguipulli, Paillaco, Puyehue, Ancud, Castro, Puerto Aysén, Valdivia, Osorno, Puerto Varas, Puerto Montt and Coyhaique and it says that they will have a maximum separation of 100km between them all. They are talking about it as being a continuous network from Araucania region through Rios and Lagos region to Aysen. But I don't see any mention of chargers to get from Puerto Montt to Coyhaique. I assume that Coyhaique is not included in the idea of all chargers being within 100km.

The chargers are 22kW. That means that you have to stop for 1 - 1.5 hours typically depending on how much charge you need (unlike the 50kW Copec chargers that will charge in minutes).

Source:
http://www.electromov.cl/2019/09/30/zon ... electricos
http://www.elrepuertero.cl/noticia/soci ... metros-del

So, once this network is finished (assuming it isn't already, I am emailing them to check), and once the Copec fast chargers I mentioned previously as coming soon are operational in the big gap between Concepcion/Chillan and Temuco, you would be able to drive from Santiago to the end of Chiloe in an electric car. That should be within this year or next year at the very latest.

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41southchile
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by 41southchile » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:04 pm

Britkid wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 12:32 pm
Puerto Varas has just opened its first charging point as part of a deployment by Saesa, the electricity company. They are offering free charging to start with, and offering to help with home charger installation (I don't see any specific details about what they mean here).

The Saesa network locations are Temuco, Pucón, Loncoche, Panguipulli, Paillaco, Puyehue, Ancud, Castro, Puerto Aysén, Valdivia, Osorno, Puerto Varas, Puerto Montt and Coyhaique and it says that they will have a maximum separation of 100km between them all. They are talking about it as being a continuous network from Araucania region through Rios and Lagos region to Aysen. But I don't see any mention of chargers to get from Puerto Montt to Coyhaique. I assume that Coyhaique is not included in the idea of all chargers being within 100km.

The chargers are 22kW. That means that you have to stop for 1 - 1.5 hours typically depending on how much charge you need (unlike the 50kW Copec chargers that will charge in minutes).

Source:
http://www.electromov.cl/2019/09/30/zon ... electricos
http://www.elrepuertero.cl/noticia/soci ... metros-del

So, once this network is finished (assuming it isn't already, I am emailing them to check), and once the Copec fast chargers I mentioned previously as coming soon are operational in the big gap between Concepcion/Chillan and Temuco, you would be able to drive from Santiago to the end of Chiloe in an electric car. That should be within this year or next year at the very latest.
I saw that and meant to post here, there is a lot of information missing on the article I read, but a good start.
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by PXYC » Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:35 pm

I travelled on lots of electric vehicle ubers on my last trip to Europe (Nissans, VW et all). I got a little excited, as it was the first time for me, but speaking with the drivers I got the feeling it's a tricky investment because the improvement rate is brutal, you might buy an electric car in 2019 and in 2020 another car comes into to the market with 25% more autonomy so your investment value drops dramatically. Another thing is that there are still no condos being built with electric car chargers, which is kind of strange with all these Tesla fever going on in the high range price - it really doesn't make sense to me to have the same model as gas stations, if you already have electricity coming to your parking space.

I think it's the future though.

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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by admin » Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:04 pm

I am still waiting for Saesa to provide good, stable eletricity to my house. they were voted the worst company in chile (even over the cell phone companies) multiple years in a row.
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