electric vehicles in chile

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nwdiver
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by nwdiver » Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:58 pm

Electric cars, power from hydro......0 carbon emissions, Chile can do it, but is there the will?
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admin
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by admin » Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:04 pm

bert.douglas wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 2:03 pm
Britkid wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:47 pm
Some good points admin. On the reliability/parts question, keep in mind that, as the Forbes article I posted says: "electric motors only have one moving part while engines in traditional automobiles contain dozens. Items that do not need to be replaced in electric vehicles include oil, fan belts, air filters, timing belts, head gaskets, cylinder heads and spark plugs."
How much does it cost to replace the battery pack on an out-of-warranty Tesla? I have heard numbers like $45k.
that is why i am investing in everything that goes in to car batteries. lithium and cobalt to rare rarth metals. hell, i might even buy some copper miners. everyone keeps debating how much lithium will be needed, as if it was one and done. they are sll going to need more than one battery in their life, unless cars become disposable.

at least for the moment, and the next decade, there is a real shortage of the rare metals:
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/arti ... ble-energy

what bothers me more about elettic cars in chile, is i sure would not let the greese monkeys touch the computers in one. then also, i dont let anyone mess with computers in any car i own now. wait, i dont let anyone in chile touch any of my computers, inside or outside a car. they better make sure they are all online updatable, because there is no way chile will ever have suffient techs to mess with one.
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at46
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by at46 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 7:15 pm

Britkid wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 6:17 pm
On the liquid natural gas vehicles, it does look like they are less polluting than a petrol or diesel car, and quite possibly less polluting than an electric car.

However, from a global warming standpoint, I think it's likely that an electric car would be better in most countries including the UK, US, Europe and Chile. However I haven't done the calculations so can't be sure.
They are widely available and the conversion kits are widely available also and cheap to boot. Pay attention at some Argie plated vehicles you might see on the roads here come summer. A lot of them feature a red cylinder under the trunk. In Chile I think they're prohibited by law, probably, as a result of some special interest lobbying, as per usual.

Tesla does not make its own batteries, Panasonic makes it for it, at least in the US. In China I'm sure Tesla will have a Chinese partner. You should read on the way the contracts between Panasonic and Tesla are structured - Panasonic basically holds Tesla by the balls and most certainly does not transfer the technology out of its own hands.

scandinavian
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by scandinavian » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:13 pm

If the car / truck is for commercial use, then you can convert to gas. I have seen plenty of taxis that drive on gas and a friend has a new Ford F150 that he converted.

mem
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by mem » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:05 pm

To clarify a few things:

The only conversion kits I have seen in region 9 are on the yaris and accent taxis that run on propane. I am not aware of any actual LNG availability.

My understanding is LNG is basically a combo of propane, butane, ethane, and methane, with >60% of the total in LNG is methane.

It's clear that propane or LNG is going to be cleaner, but how does it shake out in cost of mileage and range versus diesel/bencina/ev?

Is it really so easy and cheap to convert almost any car or suv to propane if not LNG?

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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:11 pm

OK, perhaps I was wrong about Tesla making its own batteries. I am not sure. It does own its own battery making facility in the US but I didn't realize Panasonic was investing in it or partnering in it. But the point is that Panasonic owns all the intellectual property?
In 2014/2015 I blogged about my life in Chile. http://web.archive.org/web/201601121940 ... age_id=268

mem
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by mem » Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:16 pm

admin wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:13 pm
the thing that will hold me up for many a year, and possibly never replacing my gas vehical is that i live in a rural area and often my wife and i work in far more remote areas (e.g. the patagonia).

1. our local saesa eletric grid is crap. one power outage a week, for months this year. i infact just filed a claim with them for 4 computer power supplies they killed with their dirty eletricity. imagine replacing a fried tesla.

i might at some point replace one vehical with eletric (way way in the future), for daily local driving, but i dont see being able to drive an eletric vehical in to the patagonia any time this decade or the next. local driving in the 10th region for me is about 20-30,000 km a year, and most of it on route 5, within 200 km or less to home. which most of that is done with my diesel hyndai just because it is realy cheap to drive.

but for more remote locations, i need horse power, 4x4, range, and reliability, not to mention a chance of finding parts and service when things go wrong in remote areas. often where there is no eletric grid. sometimes even that is not sufficient. when we reach the end of the road, if we realy need something "green", reliable, and truly 4x4 in the patagonia, we borrow some horses.

we are an edge case however. 90% of chileans have mental breakdowns the moment they hit a dirt road. they dont do rural or remote, and think chiloe is the end of the world and chile.
You gotta get a nice APC UPS. I have a Smart UPS 3000 from Schneider electric here in Chile. I run 3 PSU's off of it. 2x850watt and 1x1000watt. It's only loaded at 45% capacity and can run 30min with all 3 psus running full on. If they are just on but not using much juice closer to an hour.

It's so well worth it. The startups 3000 puts out crystal clear power, conditions, voltage regulates, and allows my systems to survive the typical brownouts and multi minute outages. I knew the power was not clean but now I really know the nuts and bolts to quantify it. I have seen voltage variance from 199V to 230V! The ups auto regulates the output and gives me 96% power efficiency...but I'm also using titanium rated psus...not the 80 or 90% PSU riffraff
The UPS was worth every penny if you have high end electronics in chile. Its killing your psus but it's also degrading your components that are powered by the psus. If they are quality components you want to have long life a good ups will really max out their life.

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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by at46 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 11:55 pm

Britkid wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:11 pm
OK, perhaps I was wrong about Tesla making its own batteries. I am not sure. It does own its own battery making facility in the US but I didn't realize Panasonic was investing in it or partnering in it. But the point is that Panasonic owns all the intellectual property?
I think Tesla gave Panasonic a floor and a roof at the Gigafactory, but all the equipment and technology is Panasonic's. Tesla also contracted to buy all of Panasonic's output at that factory for the next 10 years or something, with huge fines in case Tesla breaks its commitment. And from this article it looks like Tesla already broke that contract, so the fines will follow. Which is probably why Morgan Stanley, one of Tesla's underwriters, said recently they don't see Tesla continuing on a standalone basis. https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/artic ... dependency

at46
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by at46 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:01 am

mem wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:05 pm
It's clear that propane or LNG is going to be cleaner, but how does it shake out in cost of mileage and range versus diesel/bencina/ev?

Is it really so easy and cheap to convert almost any car or suv to propane if not LNG?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_vehicle

mem
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by mem » Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:32 am

at46 wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:01 am
mem wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:05 pm
It's clear that propane or LNG is going to be cleaner, but how does it shake out in cost of mileage and range versus diesel/bencina/ev?

Is it really so easy and cheap to convert almost any car or suv to propane if not LNG?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_vehicle
Interesting link. Didn't really see much about mileage or range directly but was sufficiently discouraged about each if the forms drawbacks

Either you need a massive tank on the car larger than a regular fuel tank, or the tank you need has to be kept cold, or in the case of propane and there is a leak it can accumulate in a pocket under the car and then explode
Add to that I dont know of any LNG or CNG stations within 100km of where I live in region 9 and its DOA
Batteries are starting to look like the make more sense, especially when so much energy is needed just to operate a CNG station due to the extreme pressure needed.
I can see why in general the push is to do electric with batteries. In terms of the weight of the batteries versus the tanks for CNG/LNG I dont think that is much of a difference.

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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by admin » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:29 am

mem wrote:
Sat Dec 15, 2018 10:16 pm
admin wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 12:13 pm
the thing that will hold me up for many a year, and possibly never replacing my gas vehical is that i live in a rural area and often my wife and i work in far more remote areas (e.g. the patagonia).

1. our local saesa eletric grid is crap. one power outage a week, for months this year. i infact just filed a claim with them for 4 computer power supplies they killed with their dirty eletricity. imagine replacing a fried tesla.

i might at some point replace one vehical with eletric (way way in the future), for daily local driving, but i dont see being able to drive an eletric vehical in to the patagonia any time this decade or the next. local driving in the 10th region for me is about 20-30,000 km a year, and most of it on route 5, within 200 km or less to home. which most of that is done with my diesel hyndai just because it is realy cheap to drive.

but for more remote locations, i need horse power, 4x4, range, and reliability, not to mention a chance of finding parts and service when things go wrong in remote areas. often where there is no eletric grid. sometimes even that is not sufficient. when we reach the end of the road, if we realy need something "green", reliable, and truly 4x4 in the patagonia, we borrow some horses.

we are an edge case however. 90% of chileans have mental breakdowns the moment they hit a dirt road. they dont do rural or remote, and think chiloe is the end of the world and chile.
You gotta get a nice APC UPS. I have a Smart UPS 3000 from Schneider electric here in Chile. I run 3 PSU's off of it. 2x850watt and 1x1000watt. It's only loaded at 45% capacity and can run 30min with all 3 psus running full on. If they are just on but not using much juice closer to an hour.

It's so well worth it. The startups 3000 puts out crystal clear power, conditions, voltage regulates, and allows my systems to survive the typical brownouts and multi minute outages. I knew the power was not clean but now I really know the nuts and bolts to quantify it. I have seen voltage variance from 199V to 230V! The ups auto regulates the output and gives me 96% power efficiency...but I'm also using titanium rated psus...not the 80 or 90% PSU riffraff
The UPS was worth every penny if you have high end electronics in chile. Its killing your psus but it's also degrading your components that are powered by the psus. If they are quality components you want to have long life a good ups will really max out their life.

yea i have ups on my server. putting ups on every computer makes no sense relative to the value of the computer power supply and computers. ups will run 80,000 pesos each, good for say 5 years. ups for 10 computers, that is a lot of money.

i have lost 4 power supplies in 15 years, and most recently is particular to saesa messing with the local grid. prior to that i never lost a power supply, ever. i even ran my office server for years without ups. all our computers are linux, and they handle hard reboots and recover gracefully without a problem. the data is backedup hourly, so even if occasionaly loose an entire computer it is no big deal. i think those 4 replacment power supplies have cost me like 50,000 pesos, mabie vs. more than 800,000 had i put ups on them. realy, if the eletric grid is good, you should not need more than a good power strip with a breaker on it. ups make no sense unless you realy need to insure 100% up time.
Spencer Global Chile: Legal, relocation, and Investment assistance in Chile.
For more information visit: https://www.spencerglobal.com

From USA and outside Chile dial 1-917-727-5985 (U.S.), in Chile dial 65 2 42 1024 or by cell 747 97974.

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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by fraggle092 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 10:49 am

Electric cars are still urban toys imho and would be impractical in the North of Chile, at least.
Right now they couldn't even get halfway from Santiago to La Serena (470 km) without needing at least one recharge. And you can bet that those obligatory "fast charges" along the way will cost a lot more than the domestic electricity rate specified below.

I cannot find how the actual driving range for these vehicles is calculated. Flat road, driver and one passenger? Ambient temperature? How about actual driving behaviour? Thinking of the lead-footed drivers here whose only idea is getting from A to B as quickly as possible.....

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