electric vehicles in chile

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at46
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by at46 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:31 pm

Britkid wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 10:31 am
at46,

Old petrol/diesel cars can also be converted to electric cars. It's not cheap or easy though but you might make back the conversion cost eventually from the cheaper cost of electricity per mile vs petrol/diesel (if you do enough miles). This is something I'd like to see governments subsidizing.
You know, old cars can also be converted into airplanes, especially with government help. Let's make it electric airplanes, just to be more on the cutting edge of fantastic technology. I guess this is what the results of anime education look like.

Britkid
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:54 am

Hm. Germans have tons of diesels and haven't done hardly any electric cars, and then Germans conclude that diesels are better. What a coincidence. I wonder who funded that study.

Also, why are we talking about the case for an electric car in Germany again? This is a Chile forum with a thread title "electric cars in Chile". The calculations for Chile show that electric cars beat diesel and petrol and LPG on CO2 and yet you all keep ignoring that and talking about Germany or China or Austria or any random country you can think of with dirtier electricity!

If we really want to talk other countries though, why not mention the US and UK where some of us are from. In these countries, and many others, it's easy to arrange a 100% renewable electricity supply to your home, and easy to arrange the majority of your charging at home, and there is also a charging network from Ecotricity that is also 100% renewable. If I had an electric car in the UK today, I'd easily be getting >90% renewable to power it, and in such a case electric cars would be even more clearly better for the environment than diesels, petrol or LPG cars none of which can be hooked up to renewables like that. A shame the option isn't available in Chile (as far as I know).

The Union of Concerned Scientists came up with a lower estimate of between 1 and 6 tonnes of CO2 for an electric car battery depending on the size of the battery. Quite different to the 11-15 tonne estimate in the German study. However, even if the German one were true, it's still only a few years of driving emissions and cars can last 10 or 20 years. However, I seriously doubt the German study is accurate. I've seen plenty of estimates and most of them are for a much lower amount that that. 11-15 tonnes is more likely the whole car.

"Cleaner Cars from Cradle to Grave: How Electric Cars Beat Gasoline Cars on Lifetime Global Warming Emissions"
https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/fi ... report.pdf

The Forbes article also has this:
"And it's probably worth asking what happens to the battery at end of lifecycle. Answer: Tesla recycles it, recovering 70% of the carbon. Umicore’s factory plants are able to recycle our batteries into completely reusable materials and substantially reduce the carbon footprint of manufacturing Lithium-ion batteries. The Umicore battery recycling technology is able to save at least 70 percent on CO2 emissions at the recovery and refining of these valuable metals. It does this by creating “products” and “byproducts,” rather than following a mechanical separation process."
https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2016 ... c13a60964c

bert.douglas
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by bert.douglas » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:00 am

Britkid wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:54 am
If we really want to talk other countries though, why not mention the US and UK where some of us are from. In these countries, and many others, it's easy to arrange a 100% renewable electricity supply to your home ...
I live in the US and am not aware of this. From what I read, the UK now gets about 30 percent of its electricity from renewable sources. Adding electric cars to the power load will reduce the fraction of electricity produced from renewable sources.

Among the renewable energy sources used by the UK is "biomass" part of which comes from pine forests near me. This is carbon neutral. But is it wise?

I am reading articles about a dark side to the UKs use of renewable energy. More diesel generators.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... ndals.html

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... tax-breaks

https://stopthesethings.com/2015/11/16/ ... m-back-up/

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fraggle092
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by fraggle092 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:07 pm

bert.douglas wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:00 am
From what I read, the UK now gets about 30 percent of its electricity from renewable sources.
Not quite, more like half that.
.
annualsum4.jpg
.
http://euanmearns.com/uk-grid-graphed/summary-graphs/
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Britkid
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:42 pm

Those graphs are 2012-2016. Google some more recent sources. Wind has shot up. UK is at about 30% renewable now (mostly wind). Low-carbon electricity (including nuclear) is now a little over 50% and coal is very low.

I think burning wood to produce electricity is probably a bad idea when there are better (more reliably low carbon, lower pollution, no need to destroy forest) options available: i.e. wind, solar, nuclear. And shipping wood from US to the UK does not seem to be very environmental. However, it may make sense for wood burning or even coal to be 5% of the capacity but only <1% of the actual use. In other words, the plants would be turned off most of the time and then turned on quickly in very high demand days or days of low wind.

Burning wood for heating is a better idea given the fact that there aren't as many good options for low carbon heating. Even if it turns out not to be so carbon neutral after all, that would only make it about on a par with other heating. I'm actually doing some Chile-specific research on this and may have something useful to say at some point.

I actually didn't know about diesel generators in the UK, but it seems a great idea to me. Again, it can be 5% of the capacity but only <1% of actual energy use as long as it's turned off >80% of the time. They can be turned on when the final whistle blows on a major football match and everyone rushes to the kettle, or on days of very low wind. As long as they're turned off most of the time, this is a good addition to the capacity to handle demand with limited emissions.

Britkid
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:07 pm

bert.douglas wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:00 am
Britkid wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:54 am
If we really want to talk other countries though, why not mention the US and UK where some of us are from. In these countries, and many others, it's easy to arrange a 100% renewable electricity supply to your home ...
I live in the US and am not aware of this.
I have read that this can be done in the US in a couple of places, but I could be wrong. I can't remember where I read it.

I did a search and found only this:
https://cleanchoiceenergy.com/
https://www.greenenergyconsumers.org/gr ... greenpower

I am not completely convinced by either.

The first one may or may not be real or could be greenwash BS.

The second one is a bit confusing, and may be just for one area of the country. You might have to research for your own area.

Let me know if you figure it out.

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fraggle092
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by fraggle092 » Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:33 pm

OK, from a semi-live source
(Its supposed to update every 5 minutes but this data is two hours old)
2019-04-23 20_19_59-Greenshot.png
(click on the pic for a better view)

20% still ain't 30%! - unless you cherry-pick the data...

Source data here for diy number-crunchers
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Britkid
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:22 am

The 20% number is only Britain's internal production of renewables. It also doesn't estimate what portion of the imported energy was generated from renewables. 7% was imported according to your data. If we guess that this was 2% renewable and 5% not we could say that number should be at 22%.

The reason I say 30% is because I'm including biomass as part of renewables, which I think is fair, trees are renewable.

Your source is not including biomass as a renewable, different definition, hence the discrepancy.

It does show biomass at 7.5% but separately.

Add that 7.5% and we get to 29.5% - so actually the data agrees.

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fraggle092
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by fraggle092 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 2:23 am

Britkid wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 12:22 am
The reason I say 30% is because I'm including biomass as part of renewables, which I think is fair, trees are renewable.
Yeah, sort of....
Even when trees are replaced, it can take up to 100 years to cultivate a wooded area that soaks up as much carbon as was previously released.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... tal-impact

There is nothing environmentally friendly about burning wood:
.
The dirty little secret behind 'clean energy' wood pellets.png
Britkid wrote:
Tue Apr 23, 2019 8:07 pm

I actually didn't know about diesel generators in the UK, but it seems a great idea to me.
As for diesel peaking power plants, ever seen a big diesel motor start up ?
This diesel-powered solution is losing some of its luster, however, due to rising concerns about what diesels produce in addition to power: a string of emissions including nitrogen oxides (NOX), carbon moNOXide, volatile organic compounds (VOCs) and others. Growing understanding about the environmental impacts associated with the use of fossil fuels, coupled with rising public concern about their effects on the environment and on human health, has caused the Environmental Protection Agency to revise ambient standards thereby creating new challenges for diesel generating systems..
https://www.power-eng.com/articles/prin ... ators.html

Your "cures" are worse than the illness.
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Britkid
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:00 am

NOX is a concern for diesel. In fact, it's the reason why diesel cars are not ethically better than petrol cars despite their lower CO2. Because diesel cars are a bit better on CO2, but worse on petrol.

However I'm talking about having diesels at 5% of capacity and <1% of actual use. As long as they are only turned on very occasionally in order to stop the power going out, not much diesel would be burned, and therefore not much NOX produced.

However, if you don't like that, solar panels with battery storage are now becoming more economical
https://arstechnica.com/information-tec ... d-battery/
https://qz.com/1521660/solar-and-batter ... as-plants/

This is great because it's a way to use solar power on days of low wind and low sun!

Britkid
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Wed Apr 24, 2019 10:34 am

Saying that burning wood is a "disaster for climate change" is probably wrong.

Burning wood in temperate regions (so US, Europe, Chile etc) is actually approximately climate neutral because the albedo of trees is lower than the albedo of bare ground (grasslands, croplands, desert etc).

This means that trees actually absorb heat and heat the planet (i.e. light is converted into infrared heat and trapped on Earth by greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, rather than reflected back to space). When you cut trees down, you almost always increase the albedo of the ground, causing heat to be bounced back into space. In temperate regions, the results of scientific research papers (most of which is computer modelling only) support this, and there seems to be a consensus expert opinion that, in temperate regions, this effect is approximately similar to the heating effect of burning the wood (which sends CO2 into the atmosphere, causing heating).

This means burning wood is NOT carbon neutral but IS (according to current consensus) neutral in OVERALL climate/temperature effect. (approx, may be a slight positive or negative effect).

That means from a climate change perspective we should put away the parafin and the gas and start burning wood.

If you see any articles that talk about burning wood causing climate change without even mentioning the albedo effect then they should be disregarded immediately.

NOTE: The whole argument changes in the tropical regions, where wood burning/deforestation IS a bad idea for climate change, but that's another story.

BUT!!! On the other hand, wood causes pollution, smoke in cities...so...you are just replacing one problem with another, climate change with pollution. Smoke's not so bad in the countryside but wood burning still puts PM2.5 particulates into the air and they stay in the air and travel far...causing serious human health problems.

However, I'm leaning towards wood burning at the moment as the lesser of two evils given how serious climate change is becoming.

It is better to burn dry word as this pollutes less, so it is more environmentally friendly to store word for a longer time before burning it especially in wet areas (south of Chile). I do wonder if a large part of the pollution problem in cities in south of Chile could be reduced by burning drier wood. There seems to be scientific research showing that wet wood is more polluting, and this seems to agree with common sense streetwise wisdom from those who have actually done and lived it (e.g. my neighbour told me this). Not sure if anyone has any thoughts on this.

The really environmental strategy for heating is to live in a small, well insulated house and wear a lot of clothes. If you can afford it, and have access to renewable electricity supplier, you could heat with electricity. But that's very expensive.

Houses built to passiv house standards (very thick walls, large windows facing the sun, superb insulation) need little or no heating at all. But building a new house rather than using an old one has a large carbon footprint in production, and there are not many passiv houses in existence today.

There is also green gas
https://www.ecotricity.co.uk/our-green- ... -green-gas
However, the available supply of green gas is low meaning it makes only a small contribution to heating needs.

Julito
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Julito » Wed Apr 24, 2019 1:16 pm


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