electric vehicles in chile

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electric vehicles in chile

Post by admin » Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:15 am

well, here comes the push for electric vehicles in chile. 100 buses arrived.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2018/12/09/reu ... erica.html

think it was about 5 years ago i seen the first charging station at a copec. copec the other day announced they were installing charging stations nation wide.

now chile needs to get the proce of eletricity down to something resonable.
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:24 pm

admin wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:15 am
copec the other day announced they were installing charging stations nation wide.
Can you provide a source for this story? I can't find anything online.

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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:32 pm

admin wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:15 am

now chile needs to get the proce of eletricity down to something resonable.
The price of electricity will likely have a limited effect on the adoption of electric vehicles.

Per mile to run an electric car your electricity cost is lower than your petrol/diesel cost by far. You might spend 200 or 300,000 pesos all year on electric charging. Whereas the up front cost of an electric car is higher.

So the electricity cost if you have an electric car is a small fraction of the total cost of owning the car.

What would benefit electric car adoption more would be public awareness, more charging stations, higher petrol/diesel costs, governments subsidies/taxes to drive the change, reduced cost of electric cars, reduced cost of batteries or better batteries.

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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by admin » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:04 am

what would drive adoption in chile, besides having more charging stations, would be the elimination of all IVA and other import taxes on cars. it would get the cost of eletric pretty much even with most higher priced car models on chile. spending 60,000 on an eletric, is not much of a stretch when a lot of gas vehicals cost 60,000 or more in chile.

bmw and Porsche hav a 3 min charging ststion:
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-12- ... ute-charge

meanwhile i am going to pay for my gas guzzler by buying lithium, while i wait for the market for ev to sort out the standards.

also everyone keeps harping on cars and light trucks. i think the big gains to be made in efficiency and enviromental terms is in big vehicals. all municiple vehical fleets could go eletric, garbage trucks, busses, etc. trucks could easily go eletric in chile as 90% are either in a city doing short range deliveries, or running ruta 5 which means almost all are within 200 km of the main grid.

shipps and planes are another one i am waiting for. all the mining industry could go eletric pretty fast. basicaly anywhere you have very centralized use. those gains could justify and lead the build out of the national infrastructure needed for private car adoption.

most importantly it targets the biggest pulluting vehicals that are all diesel.

realy targeting and promoting small private vehicals first is sort of a waist of resources and time. almost more of a marketing gimmic. good thing to do, but not nearly as efficient as focusing in heavy industries first.
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by admin » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:07 am

Britkid wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:24 pm
admin wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:15 am
copec the other day announced they were installing charging stations nation wide.
Can you provide a source for this story? I can't find anything online.
cant recall at the second. think it was an article in df.cl a few days ago with someone from copec.
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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by mem » Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:59 am

Britkid wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:32 pm
admin wrote:
Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:15 am

now chile needs to get the proce of eletricity down to something resonable.
The price of electricity will likely have a limited effect on the adoption of electric vehicles.

Per mile to run an electric car your electricity cost is lower than your petrol/diesel cost by far. You might spend 200 or 300,000 pesos all year on electric charging. Whereas the up front cost of an electric car is higher.

So the electricity cost if you have an electric car is a small fraction of the total cost of owning the car.

What would benefit electric car adoption more would be public awareness, more charging stations, higher petrol/diesel costs, governments subsidies/taxes to drive the change, reduced cost of electric cars, reduced cost of batteries or better batteries.
300k clp a year? Wow

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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by mem » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:02 am

admin wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:04 am
what would drive adoption in chile, besides having more charging stations, would be the elimination of all IVA and other import taxes on cars. it would get the cost of eletric pretty much even with most higher priced car models on chile. spending 60,000 on an eletric, is not much of a stretch when a lot of gas vehicals cost 60,000 or more in chile.

bmw and Porsche hav a 3 min charging ststion:
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-12- ... ute-charge

meanwhile i am going to pay for my gas guzzler by buying lithium, while i wait for the market for ev to sort out the standards.

also everyone keeps harping on cars and light trucks. i think the big gains to be made in efficiency and enviromental terms is in big vehicals. all municiple vehical fleets could go eletric, garbage trucks, busses, etc. trucks could easily go eletric in chile as 90% are either in a city doing short range deliveries, or running ruta 5 which means almost all are within 200 km of the main grid.

shipps and planes are another one i am waiting for. all the mining industry could go eletric pretty fast. basicaly anywhere you have very centralized use. those gains could justify and lead the build out of the national infrastructure needed for private car adoption.

most importantly it targets the biggest pulluting vehicals that are all diesel.

realy targeting and promoting small private vehicals first is sort of a waist of resources and time. almost more of a marketing gimmic. good thing to do, but not nearly as efficient as focusing in heavy industries first.
Could not agree more. Those 100 ev buses are a great first step.

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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by bert.douglas » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:04 am

You guys are tangling the concepts of energy source and energy carrier.

There is no reason that carbon neutral cars cannot be powered by a regular liquid fuel. Like liquid or compressed natural gas. LNG. CNG. Methane.

Industrial facilities can make the methane from carbon dioxide using the Sabatier reaction.
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi ... 001775.pdf

The overall system efficiency of this approach is nearly double that of battery powered electric cars. And there are other advantages as well. Batteries are heavy and expensive and difficult to recycle and contain a lot of toxic materials. Batteries have limited range.

Large trucks and busses, powered by natural gas, are already in production.

There is no impact to the vehicle owner to transition from fossil fuel sources of methane to completely carbon neutral methane made from recycled CO2. You don't have to throw away your car and buy an expensive new one.

This current craze of electric battery powered cars, seems to me to be designed primarily to extract money from individuals and give it to large corporations. The pollution impact is minimal, because of low system efficiency, and because most electricity is still made from coal.

Electric battery powered cars are inefficient because:
- some energy source is converted to electricity
- electricity is distributed long distance to lots of charge points
- batteries are charged quickly (and thus inefficiently)
- the car carries the heavy batteries
- the batteries are discharged to make electricity inside the car
- electricity is converted to mechanical energy to move car

At each step there is 10 to 30 percent loss of energy.

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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:17 am

"Using 15,000 miles as the average amount of miles a person will drive in a year, the annual cost of gasoline for the average car will be about $1,400 per year, ….. the average person driving the average EV 15,000 miles per year pays about $540.00 per year to charge it."
https://pluginamerica.org/how-much-does ... ctric-car/

"The Bottom Line On Electric Cars: They're Cheaper To Own"
https://www.forbes.com/sites/constanced ... d7a81c10b6

I am not sure this headline from Forbes is accurate, or even supported by the contents of the article itself. I think it's one of those decent articles with a dubious clickbait headline. However, it's worth reading.

Electric vehicles seem to be more expensive to buy, with more expensive batteries, as well as the possibility of having to install a charging point at home, but this is offset by cheaper per mile to run and less different parts to repair and maintain. Overall, I don't think the cost of ownership is that dramtically different either way.

If you do a huge mileage (20,000-30,000 miles per year) it will more likely be cheaper to own an electric car while simultaneously being a big environmental gain. If you do a small mileage (2000-3000 miles) it may be more likely to work out more expensive to have an electric car and the environmental impact of small mileage is more modest. So the case for electric cars seems to be more compelling as the expected annual mileage increases.

This is a shame as electric cars tend to be smaller, so more suited to city environments, and driven by people doing low mileage in a city where there are lots of charging points. People doing large mileage are more likely pounding up and down the motorways on a daily basis, so we really need charging stations up and down the motorways, and they need to be fast.

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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:25 am

admin wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:04 am
what would drive adoption in chile, besides having more charging stations, would be the elimination of all IVA and other import taxes on cars. it would get the cost of eletric pretty much even with most higher priced car models on chile. spending 60,000 on an eletric, is not much of a stretch when a lot of gas vehicals cost 60,000 or more in chile.
Do you mean eliminate IVA on electric (and maybe hybrids) specifically? But continue to charge IVA on gas/diesel? If so, I agree with that.

Personally, I can't afford to spend even 20 million pesos on a car, or don't want to. So far, the most expensive car I've ever bought in my life is 5 million pesos or so. So to get me to go electric when the cheapest electric car, even second hand, is around 20 million....that's a problem.

Another thing is I believe there is no exemption on the Permiso de Circulacion for electric or hybrids. Those could be exempted in the early years and perhaps allowed to not pay toll roads either. Such announcements would get in the news and could get some attention for electric cars.

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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by at46 » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:41 am

bert.douglas wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:04 am
You guys are tangling the concepts of energy source and energy carrier.

There is no reason that carbon neutral cars cannot be powered by a regular liquid fuel. Like liquid or compressed natural gas. LNG. CNG. Methane.

Industrial facilities can make the methane from carbon dioxide using the Sabatier reaction.
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi ... 001775.pdf

The overall system efficiency of this approach is nearly double that of battery powered electric cars. And there are other advantages as well. Batteries are heavy and expensive and difficult to recycle and contain a lot of toxic materials. Batteries have limited range.

Large trucks and busses, powered by natural gas, are already in production.

There is no impact to the vehicle owner to transition from fossil fuel sources of methane to completely carbon neutral methane made from recycled CO2. You don't have to throw away your car and buy an expensive new one.

This current craze of electric battery powered cars, seems to me to be designed primarily to extract money from individuals and give it to large corporations. The pollution impact is minimal, because of low system efficiency, and because most electricity is still made from coal.

Electric battery powered cars are inefficient because:
- some energy source is converted to electricity
- electricity is distributed long distance to lots of charge points
- batteries are charged quickly (and thus inefficiently)
- the car carries the heavy batteries
- the batteries are discharged to make electricity inside the car
- electricity is converted to mechanical energy to move car

At each step there is 10 to 30 percent loss of energy.
Big huge YES! Gas powered cars, trucks and buses are, imho, the quickest and cheapest way to get to clean Chile. Argentina is doing it, I think Brazil as well. What´s up with Chileans stuck on their bencineros y petroleros? A lot of the existing fleet can be converted pretty much right now at a very small cost. Are they waiting for a kick in the butt from American LNG producers? The 100 or 200 electric buses is just a PR stunt. They're not going to improve the contents of Santiago vacuum cleaner bags even by 1%.

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Re: electric vehicles in chile

Post by Britkid » Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:42 am

admin wrote:
Fri Dec 14, 2018 10:04 am

shipps and planes are another one i am waiting for.
Long haul planes that don't cause global warming just isn't going to happen for a very, very long time as covered in George Monbiot's book Heat and other sources. Clean planes are just not even at the R and D stage.

Last year I flew to New York, from there took a plane to Taiwan, and from there to Korea, and there back to Chile via Australia. The global warming caused by those same trips was virtually the same as the entire global warming effect from all my other activities for an entire year. In a 2-week trip I doubled the impact of the whole year.

If I installed solar panels on my house it would take an estimated 5 years to save the carbon equivalent to that one trip I took, if I buy an electric car it will also take about 5 years before I save the same carbon I could have saved my not taking that one trip. No amount of shorter showers, more recycling, or wind farms is going to save the planet unless those of us that fly long haul or regular short haul cut down on our flights.

One day I might calculate the total carbon footprint of all the flights I've ever taken. Honestly, I am not even sure if I dare. It would be a pretty ugly, scary number.

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