Electric Cars in Chile

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fraggle092
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Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by fraggle092 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 11:34 pm

Britkid wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:50 pm
nwdiver wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:07 pm
Brit.......how do my home solar panels charge my car that is 20 km away at my place of work?
Very easily. They wait for you to drive 20km to home!
If you had solar panels at your house and an electric car, you would be charging overnight at home each day

Charge your home batteries, (upping your solar system to cope with the extra demand).
Then you discharge your home battery to charge the vehicle battery.
Ever heard of conversion losses?
Cheaper to charge directly from the mains.
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mem
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Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by mem » Sun Oct 21, 2018 9:15 am

Yeah that is a valid point. I suppose you could avoid the battery array and just have solar panels to offset daytime use and then charge from the grid mains at night

I think you just need a grid tied system that can autoswitch back and forth as the sun begins to set and rise. Avoiding the battery array really really cuts down on the capex cost of solar outlay.

Outside of the cars pull on KwH, it depends on your nominal household usage to determine how cost efficient it will be. If you have family/kids home all day, leaving lights on frivolously, a dryer, a dishwasher, tons of computers and laptops, using solar panels during the day to offset your nominal electricity usage from the grid while using the grid at night, could pay for itself a lot faster. The panels themselves aren't really very expensive, again it's mostly the batteries and charge controller. I think aside from that it's just the inverter and maybe a device for autoswitching between grid/solar.

Ugh another factor is your peak demand...so if you have a hot pot going that pulls 2000w for a few minutes and a dryer going, etc the momentary demand will be higher than the nominal output of the panels, so it will have to switch to grid automatically for those spikes. I guess that's where the battery array comes in handy because it can store that more or less constantly nominal supply and absorb the spikes without having to switch to grid. Without batteries, and switching to grid, the nominal solar output just gets discarded while on grid suppose one way to mitigate that would be to have an electric hot water tank like a 70-100 liter model that would be on the solar and not part of the auto switching grid mechanism so that even when the rest of the house is on grid the solar is still running the hot water tank...effectively using the hot water like a big battery to store the energy. Of course its preferred to do direct transfer solar hot water heaters that just absorb the radiant energy directly rather than converting it photovoltaically first into electricity

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Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by nwdiver » Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:07 pm

Britkid wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:50 pm
nwdiver wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:07 pm
Brit.......how do my home solar panels charge my car that is 20 km away at my place of work?
Very easily. They wait for you to drive 20km to home!
If you had solar panels at your house and an electric car, you would be charging overnight at home each day and you would have a full capacity and you wouldn't need to charge anywhere else unless you were driving longer distances. In such a case, it would make more environmental sense to charge at home.
I get home at dusk, problem with solar panels is the solar bit......
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Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by Britkid » Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:45 pm

If you're going to use solar panels to charge your electric car, it will nearly always need to be done overnight. Most of the energy going into a solar panel where I live in Chile would probably be between 11am and 5pm when for most residential properties it's not needed as there are less people in the house, often none at all. The electricity needs to be able to be saved in batteries for use between 6pm and 11pm which usually in residential areas is the highest demand. If you have an electric car, that battery also needs to be able to keep that energy for that night so the system needs to have energy until around 6am by which time the typical electric car will have a full or high charge.

You also need on some cloudy/winter days need to use the grid as a backup. Unless you have a really big solar panel. The idea is you use your solar panel first and when it runs out of juice or there are too many things on at once, the grid kicks in automatically. If you wanted to live completely off-grid, you'd need some very large solar panels, a method of longer term energy storage (not sure if this is even feasible??), or a willingness to simply not use certain appliances on certain days. (Like wash your clothes in the sink on a cloudy winter day.)

Solar panels in residential situation without a way a storage the energy until the evening doesn't make much sense I don't think, especially if they won't let you sell energy to the grid. If you could sell your energy to the grid between 11am and 5pm, and if the grid has enough demand to want to buy that energy to power offices, factories, schools and so on at that time, then it could make sense. But without batteries you lose some of the other benefits of solar - like still having energy in a power cut, or probably even after a major earthquake,, not worrying so much about electricity price rises and so on.

It's only going to be cheaper to charge from the mains than a solar panel if you are factoring in the cost of installing your solar panel + batteries into that calculation. Once you have already paid for solar panels+ babtteries, there are almost no costs to use the energy. So once your solar panels are in place, you only need to use the mains when the solar panels don't have enough energy. Solar panels are not always that powerful or able to provide that much energy. Obviously, this depends. If you spend a fortune on a massive array that may be a different matter.

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Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by fraggle092 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:12 am

From Reddit:
We have been offgrid for 10 years because we could not get a power easement. If you can get grid tie for 12 grand, wait, if you can get grid tie for 30 grand, go for it without hesitation. You will be money ahead and you wont have to trouble shoot your power system at 8:00 on a very cold December night with a house full of relatives. Can you service/ troubleshoot an inverter/charger, charge controller, diesel engine, diesel generator end, maintain batteries, etc, etc, ad infinitum? What about cost of replacing all of the above, because you will have to. There is a reason grid power is expensive, it is difficult to produce and requires an incredibly complex infrastructure. If you have a choice get utility power it is the deal of a lifetime. Offgrid sounds very cool but the reality... I would go grid tie in a fucking heartbeat if I could. This is my humble opinion, as usual YMMV!
From someone who has been there and done it, not just talked about it.
Much of the same applies even if you have a utility hookup.
Google's results are just pages and pages of Solar hype from interested parties that want you to buy their stuff, or their ideas. Need to look at blog posts or end-user fora.

As for Solar, here's an interesting high-quality post on Scottish Solar installations that counters the omnipresent green hype. Many points raised are applicable in sunnier climes as well, but are often ignored.
...The Dutch have effectively zero hydro power because the country is flat. Scotland should have zero solar power because the Sun rarely shines..
But they keep sticking those (often wrongly-aligned) solar arrays on roofs.
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at46
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Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by at46 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:57 am

Yep, green hype that ends up in criminal squandering of resources. Made possible by the debasement of money in an effort to prolong the existence of the capitalist system and exacerbated by globalization of trade and monopolization of MSM. Britkid, are you following me? :)

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Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by admin » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:15 pm

at46 wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:57 am
Yep, green hype that ends up in criminal squandering of resources. Made possible by the debasement of money in an effort to prolong the existence of the capitalist system and exacerbated by globalization of trade and monopolization of MSM. Britkid, are you following me? :)
i'm so proud of you. you maneged that whole rant wothout mentioning trump or gold directly.😜😝😛

sorry, could not resist.
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Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by fraggle092 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:38 pm

All this green talk resolutely ignores the elephant in the room:

In my lifetime the world population has tripled, from around 2.5 Bn. to 7.5 Bn.

Every generation is consuming more resources of all kinds than its predecessor. The emerging nations, the ones with the largest populations, will be where the greatest increases will happen as they naturally aspire to the same "quality" of life that we have, thanks to still relatively cheap petroleum and its chemical byproducts.

No easy answers unfortunately, even if population growth stabilizes.
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Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by nwdiver » Mon Oct 22, 2018 3:15 pm

For Chile it's simple......solar day times and hydro night times and winters, not many countries have tha option.....yes and grid tie, which by the way is being tested in Chile....
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Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by Britkid » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:26 pm

If the birth rate fell to 2 children per person everywhere the world immediately population would still increase to 11 billion. according to this 16-minute video with some interesting stats: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LyzBoHo5EI

nwdiver, what you say sounds good.

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Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by 41southchile » Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:18 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
Mon Oct 22, 2018 10:12 am
From Reddit:
We have been offgrid for 10 years because we could not get a power easement. If you can get grid tie for 12 grand, wait, if you can get grid tie for 30 grand, go for it without hesitation. You will be money ahead and you wont have to trouble shoot your power system at 8:00 on a very cold December night with a house full of relatives. Can you service/ troubleshoot an inverter/charger, charge controller, diesel engine, diesel generator end, maintain batteries, etc, etc, ad infinitum? What about cost of replacing all of the above, because you will have to. There is a reason grid power is expensive, it is difficult to produce and requires an incredibly complex infrastructure. If you have a choice get utility power it is the deal of a lifetime. Offgrid sounds very cool but the reality... I would go grid tie in a fucking heartbeat if I could. This is my humble opinion, as usual YMMV!
From someone who has been there and done it, not just talked about it.
Much of the same applies even if you have a utility hookup.
Google's results are just pages and pages of Solar hype from interested parties that want you to buy their stuff, or their ideas. Need to look at blog posts or end-user fora.

As for Solar, here's an interesting high-quality post on Scottish Solar installations that counters the omnipresent green hype. Many points raised are applicable in sunnier climes as well, but are often ignored.
...The Dutch have effectively zero hydro power because the country is flat. Scotland should have zero solar power because the Sun rarely shines..
But they keep sticking those (often wrongly-aligned) solar arrays on roofs.
This is disappointing but not that surprising I guess, and I kind of suspected as much. At the moment we are working to connect the next stage of electricity to 25 parcelas , the first stage which I sold off relatively cheap for the area to (mainly pay off some bank debt, so wanted fast sales, so they didn't get underground lines) electric connections cost aprox 18 million pesos plus IVA to provide an aerial line to all 16 parcelas, parcela owners then deal direct with the electricity company to get their individual hook up, that costs them aprox 400 to 500 thousand pesos each, (electric plan, meter etc).

The next stage which is not connected to that development I am going to do underground electricity (parcelas have gone up to pay for underground connections and the bank is a lot more friendly nowdays) . In this stage we have to extend the main distribtion line 1000 meters underground (to carry on for the next stages next year) and provide connections to 25 parcelas at the same time

A European friend was trying to convince me that I should offer off grid solar to parcelas to be "eco friendly" or whatever, and he seemed to think there is a high demand for them, I was not entirely convinced (about the demand side, people generally want simplicity) and after reading more about it, it all sounds romantic and nice, but practically I am even less convinced now.

On a simple cost basis, assuming costs come in between 80 and 100 million for what we want to do now, how much would it cost to provide an individual off grid solution to 25 parcelas ? Could it be done for less than 4 million a parcela? Probably not.

Then, also what I have been reading, the on-going issues of an off grid systems, and lifetime issues, once our on grid electricity distribution is built within the loteo, the local electric company takes control of it and all issues and maintenance are their responsibility going forward forever.

The comments above are right, it definitely appears a lot cheaper and easier and in the long term hassle free to stay on grid when the grid is to the property, maybe in the depths of Patagonia it maybe an option? but I can't see renewables working any which way I look at in our case. Maybe some solar street illumination and things like that, but that's probably about it.
Comuna Loncotoro Lakes Region Chile

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fraggle092
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Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by fraggle092 » Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:53 am

41southchile wrote:
Wed Oct 24, 2018 2:18 pm
Maybe some solar street illumination and things like that, but that's probably about it.
Even that may be problematic....

Vecinos preocupados ante robo de luminarias en vías de evacuación de Peñuelas
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