Electric Cars in Chile

General topics related to Living in Chile
Britkid
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1593
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:59 pm
Location: Talagante area, Chile
Contact:

Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by Britkid » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:12 pm

Solar panels can charge a car that's away all day as long as its daily mileage is 100km or less or whatever the range of the car is. Solar panels for most people would provide most of the juice a car needs. Only obvious exception is if you do very heavy mileage on a daily basis. One of the good things about electric cars is that you can charge them overnight when grid usage is lower (this limiting the need for extra grid capacity).

I don't believe the comment about rewiring a city to accommodate electric cars. I've never heard of anything like that. I could be wrong however. Maybe if you can share evidence/articles. All I've heard is that electric cars can be charged in regular sockets, but it's safer/better with adapters/converters/protection or some such added at the user end. I don't know much about this issue but will remain skeptical until someone produces evidence.

Also, no city ever needs to change its grid in a short time. I mean think about it, even if petrol and diesel cars were banned tomorrow, there are 1 billion cars in the world and 100 million sold each year. It would take ten years to make the transition to mostly electric cars and that's if electric cars were 100% of new sales starting tomorrow. In Europe, they are talking about no petrol/diesel cars from 2040, but that is new cars only. Even if that happens, it would still be 2050-2060 before petrol/diesel cars on the road reached a negligible level assuming they don't ban old cars. That's maybe >40 years to steadily adapt the electric grids and steadily build chargers outside apartments. Chile is moving slower, so it could be longer.

Electric cars is one of those things that is quite complicated and therefore with many pros and cons it's easy to muddy the waters and find a way to argue against it. But once you wade through all the arguments carefully it's clear to me that electric cars is probably going to happen in a big way- just that it will take decades.

The issue with public transport rather than electric cars is that people don't want to do it. People just prefer cars. As a general rule, people travel on public transport when they can't afford cars.
In 2014/2015 I blogged about my life in Chile. http://web.archive.org/web/201601121940 ... age_id=268

at46
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 666
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:13 pm
Location: Vancouver/Santiago

Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by at46 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:54 pm

Britkid, I can see you prefer words over numbers, but please look at these back of the napkin computations:

If average EV uses up 30 kwh every 160 km. https://pluginamerica.org/how-much-does ... ctric-car/
Average car mileage per year in Santiago is 16,000 km.
Average number of cars on the road each day is around 700,000.
Then annual per EV electricity consumption would be 3 MW.
And annual total electricity consumption by 700,000 EVs would be 2,100 GW.
In comparison, total installed power plant capacity in Chile was 119 times less than that at 17.61 GW in 2012. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrici ... r_in_Chile

The air pollution is Santiago is real and it's bad. Wasting your precious time and effort on the EV pipe dream in the hope of helping the environment is completely misguided.

User avatar
fraggle092
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1377
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:35 pm
Location: In Chile

Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by fraggle092 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:45 am

While Britkid's arguments are the usual mix of wishful thinking and having your cake and eating it, your sums are wrong:
at46 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:54 pm
Britkid, I can see you prefer words over numbers, but please look at these back of the napkin computations:

If average EV uses up 30 kwh every 160 km. https://pluginamerica.org/how-much-does ... ctric-car/
Average car mileage per year in Santiago is 16,000 km.
Average number of cars on the road each day is around 700,000.
OK, lets accept those figures:

But then:
at46 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:54 pm
And annual total electricity consumption by 700,000 EVs would be 2,100 GW.
Annual consumption would be 2100 GWh (2.1 TWh) The "hours" is what defines energy consumption.
I guess you thought that 2.1 TW was instantaneous demand. No.

Dividing that by number of hours in a year (8760) gives an average hourly consumption of around 240 MWh/h

To put that into perspective, the abandoned HydroAysen project was designed to produce 4 GW of electrical energy continuously.

In one hour, thats 4 GWh of power.
In a year, that is 35040 GWh, or 35 TWh

So while electrical charging would have an impact on Chile's crappy power infrastructure, it wouldn't be for lack of generating capacity.
Après moi, le déluge

at46
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 666
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:13 pm
Location: Vancouver/Santiago

Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by at46 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:37 am

fraggle092 wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:45 am
While Britkid's arguments are the usual mix of wishful thinking and having your cake and eating it, your sums are wrong:
at46 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:54 pm
Britkid, I can see you prefer words over numbers, but please look at these back of the napkin computations:

If average EV uses up 30 kwh every 160 km. https://pluginamerica.org/how-much-does ... ctric-car/
Average car mileage per year in Santiago is 16,000 km.
Average number of cars on the road each day is around 700,000.
OK, lets accept those figures:

But then:
at46 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:54 pm
And annual total electricity consumption by 700,000 EVs would be 2,100 GW.
Annual consumption would be 2100 GWh (2.1 TWh) The "hours" is what defines energy consumption.
I guess you thought that 2.1 TW was instantaneous demand. No.

Dividing that by number of hours in a year (8760) gives an average hourly consumption of around 240 MWh/h

To put that into perspective, the abandoned HydroAysen project was designed to produce 4 GW of electrical energy continuously.

In one hour, thats 4 GWh of power.
In a year, that is 35040 GWh, or 35 TWh

So while electrical charging would have an impact on Chile's crappy power infrastructure, it wouldn't be for lack of generating capacity.
Thank you for this. I had to sleep on it and take a shower before I realized my mistake there. Now I'll try to figure out how many square meters of solar panels it will take to produce those 240 MWh/h. Or should it be 480 MWh/h given the theory the cars will be charging at night?

User avatar
fraggle092
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1377
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:35 pm
Location: In Chile

Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by fraggle092 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:36 pm

at46 wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:37 am
Thank you for this. I had to sleep on it and take a shower before I realized my mistake there. Now I'll try to figure out how many square meters of solar panels it will take to produce those 240 MWh/h. Or should it be 480 MWh/h given the theory the cars will be charging at night?
Appreciate your honesty. I figured I would have to come back time and again on this topic. That's 240 MWh/h averaged over 24 hours. I would imagine that tariffs will have to be used to encourage the use of off-peak electricity with even higher than normal rates for fast charging which would put a greater strain on the grid, especially as this demand would be mainly confined to one area, ie Santiago and surroundings....

As for domestic Solar recharging, I read on a biased-but-fairly-honest Aussie vendor site that around 11 m2 of panels per vehicle are needed, assuming you park at home in the daytime to recharge(!) Sort of rules out apartment dwellers as well as commuters.

As you mentioned before, electric cars should be a very long way down Chile's environmental priorities list.
Après moi, le déluge

User avatar
nwdiver
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 2938
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:45 pm
Location: Vancouver, BC and Chile where ever it's Summer
Contact:

Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by nwdiver » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:07 pm

Brit.......how do my home solar panels charge my car that is 20 km away at my place of work?
It's all about the wine.

mem
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 370
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by mem » Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:44 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 12:36 pm
at46 wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:37 am
Thank you for this. I had to sleep on it and take a shower before I realized my mistake there. Now I'll try to figure out how many square meters of solar panels it will take to produce those 240 MWh/h. Or should it be 480 MWh/h given the theory the cars will be charging at night?
Appreciate your honesty. I figured I would have to come back time and again on this topic. That's 240 MWh/h averaged over 24 hours. I would imagine that tariffs will have to be used to encourage the use of off-peak electricity with even higher than normal rates for fast charging which would put a greater strain on the grid, especially as this demand would be mainly confined to one area, ie Santiago and surroundings....

As for domestic Solar recharging, I read on a biased-but-fairly-honest Aussie vendor site that around 11 m2 of panels per vehicle are needed, assuming you park at home in the daytime to recharge(!) Sort of rules out apartment dwellers as well as commuters.

As you mentioned before, electric cars should be a very long way down Chile's environmental priorities list.
Yeah there would have to be solar equipped parking structures with panels on the top and hookups for the cars inside so while people are at work the cars charge. Otherwise the solar panels at home will require battery array to store the energy and feed it to the car at night

User avatar
fraggle092
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1377
Joined: Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:35 pm
Location: In Chile

Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by fraggle092 » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:17 pm

mem wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:44 pm
Yeah there would have to be solar equipped parking structures with panels on the top and hookups for the cars inside so while people are at work the cars charge.
There wouldn't be any city centres left, just Solar car parks sprawling out everywhere.
Single-storey for hopefully obvious reasons.
Talk about urban blight....
mem wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:44 pm
Otherwise the solar panels at home will require battery array to store the energy and feed it to the car at night
Charge your home batteries, (upping your solar system to cope with the extra demand).
Then you discharge your home battery to charge the vehicle battery.
Ever heard of conversion losses?
Cheaper to charge directly from the mains.
Après moi, le déluge

41southchile
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 382
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:39 pm
Location: Lakes Region

Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by 41southchile » Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:47 pm

at46 wrote:
Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:54 pm

The air pollution is Santiago is real and it's bad. Wasting your precious time and effort on the EV pipe dream in the hope of helping the environment is completely misguided.
It is very bad, but is Chile just slow or what ? According to the article here LA started realizing they had a problem in the 1940s and 50s, yeah it took 20 or so years to sort things out, but Smog has been an issue since at least the 90s in Stgo, yet things seem to be getting worse than better, (just an observation, no facts to back that up, but now the air in Stgo seems bad all the time, a part from a few hours after rain, it used to be a winter thing). So what is actually seriously being done or have most Santiago folk just accepted it ? I know the culture is different here and everything but even places like Mexico city look to be trying harder and have had some relative successes, will it be another 30 or so years before Santiago catches up ? Or are they doing all the can in it's just that people flout the regulations and laws and blame it on everyone else?
https://www.marketplace.org/2014/07/14/ ... -pollution
In the Lakes Region Chile for 6 years. It looks like New Zealand in some ways, and is nearly at the bottom of the world too, but there the similarities end.

mem
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 370
Joined: Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:18 am

Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by mem » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:38 pm

Until they start having quotas on traditional fuel cars or some kind of neg/pos incentive to go hybrid or ev or even just mandating efficient mileage for gas/diesel (35+mpg) I doubt much will change. If people want to get ahead of the curve the easiest thing is a Prius or a Lexus Ct200 or comparable hybrid in mileage. After that a 30 or 35+ diesel mpg. Its pretty clear the 100% EV is years off and still, even then, almost entirely for dense urban centers like Santiago or Concepcion. It is definiatley a multi-pronged approach. Taxis should be 100%EV. Trains or trams or buses should be 100% EV. Electric scooters (article just posted today to have tons of electric scooters in Santiago in 2019. Traditional bicycles ala Amsterdam style, etc the scooters and bikes work well for single commuters depending on proximity. If all of that is done then you are only left with a minority of traffic that really warrants a separate car with multi passenger capacity.

Britkid
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1593
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:59 pm
Location: Talagante area, Chile
Contact:

Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by Britkid » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:47 pm

Solar panels is an individual choice for people that are very concerned about the environment, or like the off grid independence.

It's also for someone with savings available now. While you will save money and in theory make the money back, this is going to take 5 or 10 or 20 years. Most people don't find that type of payback period attractive. If you invested the money instead in property or stocks and shares, and were successful, then the solar panels, relative to that, might NEVER make the money back compared to a lost investment opportunity.

My only point about solar panels is that your CO2 emissions per mile on the car would be lower. I introduced solar panels into the conversation about CO2 per mile compares for electric cars to fuel cars.

But when you think about the very high cost to install solar panels...I mean if you really wanted to help the environment, if that is truly your goal, it may be argued that it is better to use that money to plant trees, or give it to Greenpeace, or invest it in wind turbines. It may even be argued that you could give the money to charity and have a greater positive effect also.

In Chile, people just don't have as much money on hand, yes I agree apartments don't lend themselves to solar panels. I think electric cars will be charged off the grid with the highest use at home with work charging and charging stations also supporting. I don't see a big move to solar panels in Chile. Solar panels also work better with good-sized subsidies which aren't likely in Chile. On the other hand, there is a lot of reliable sun here in the central region. Other option is more solar panels in the north, feed that into the grid including the central metropolitan Santiago region.

An advantage of solar panels is if you want to live off-grid, and also you still have power during a power cut without needing a generator backup.

I don't have a strong feeling one way or the other about solar panels.
In 2014/2015 I blogged about my life in Chile. http://web.archive.org/web/201601121940 ... age_id=268

Britkid
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1593
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:59 pm
Location: Talagante area, Chile
Contact:

Re: Electric Cars in Chile

Post by Britkid » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:50 pm

nwdiver wrote:
Sat Oct 20, 2018 1:07 pm
Brit.......how do my home solar panels charge my car that is 20 km away at my place of work?
Very easily. They wait for you to drive 20km to home!
If you had solar panels at your house and an electric car, you would be charging overnight at home each day and you would have a full capacity and you wouldn't need to charge anywhere else unless you were driving longer distances. In such a case, it would make more environmental sense to charge at home.
In 2014/2015 I blogged about my life in Chile. http://web.archive.org/web/201601121940 ... age_id=268

Post Reply