Bargain Hunter(s) Read This

[HybridAmbassador]

7 sailors killed in that collision.- As an American destroyer cruised off the waters of Japan in clear weather in the early hours of Saturday, only a few dozen of the crew of 350 were likely to be awake: standing watch, keeping the engines running, manning the bridge.

Then, Navy officers with decades of experience at sea say, there were probably minutes of sheer terror aboard the Fitzgerald before the collision with an enormous container ship that killed seven sailors.

“My guess is they suddenly saw the lights of the other ship coming toward them and tried to veer off,” said retired Adm. James G. Stavridis, whose book “Destroyer Captain” recounts his time commanding a similar ship in the mid-1990s. “Suddenly your ship is sinking under you. It’s terrifying.”

Navy leaders on Sunday hailed the efforts of the surviving sailors who struggled to seal off compartments and pump out the water that poured in through gaping holes torn in the starboard side.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/18/worl ... japan.html

[admin]

I'm sorry, but from the lowest ranking sailor to the highest ranking admiral, that was on duty or off, court martials are in order.

If you can not track a ship that big and slow, they sure as hell would not have seen a cruise missle, plane, or hostile vessel.

[Andres]

Actually, it is easier for a big ship to go faster than a small ship, based upon hydrodynamics.
That cargo ship's max speed is 25.3 knots; the Navy ship's max speed is 30 knots; not much difference.
Of course, maximum speed is not relevant, as we do not know how fast each of them was going.

I saw an odd headline that there was disagreement between the US and Japan as to what time the collision occurred.
International Maritime Organization regulations, which tankers are usually obliged to follow if they want to enter most ports, require something akin to an aircraft "black box". That should record not just ship dynamics but also radar data. Analyzing that should resolve any disagreements.

I doubt the Fitzgerald had a similar recording device, but I might be wrong. Even if they did, it is doubtful the US government would make the data available to anyone.

[nwdiver]

Even at max speed they could see each other on a converging course for 30-40 minutes minimum, enough time to take evasive action which they are responsible to under take as they a a armed service vessel, my radar on my boat is Doppler and shows vessel direction, red converging green moving away, the Navy has had the tech for 20 years, no excuse......

[JHyre]

Picalena,

Your post is as hilarious as it is true. I know the types of people it was directed at.

If I get one more stupid email from someone who knows I am married to a Chilena about the libertarian paradise of Chile ('cause Sovereign Man or International Living or some-similar-such outfit said so) I think I will blow a gasket. It is hard to explain the reality. I usually start with "here's what we had to do to get something notarized in Chile". Yes, it would take two minutes and perhaps one dollar at your local bank in the US. That usually raises some eyebrows.

John Hyre

[admin]

Move to Chile because someone is telling you it is a 'Libertarian Paradise', and watch how fast you are liberated from your wallet.

[41southchile]

7 sailors killed in that collision.- As an American destroyer cruised off the waters of Japan in clear weather in the early hours of Saturday, only a few dozen of the crew of 350 were likely to be awake: standing watch, keeping the engines running, manning the bridge.

Then, Navy officers with decades of experience at sea say, there were probably minutes of sheer terror aboard the Fitzgerald before the collision with an enormous container ship that killed seven sailors.

“My guess is they suddenly saw the lights of the other ship coming toward them and tried to veer off,” said retired Adm. James G. Stavridis, whose book “Destroyer Captain” recounts his time commanding a similar ship in the mid-1990s. “Suddenly your ship is sinking under you. It’s terrifying.”

Navy leaders on Sunday hailed the efforts of the surviving sailors who struggled to seal off compartments and pump out the water that poured in through gaping holes torn in the starboard side.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/18/worl ... japan.html

I always like to complain or comment on f&#k ups that happen in Chile, but the truth is they happen everywhere ( fatalities in accidents are never good, but it is what it is unfortunately, thats life and death). There are so many man made f&# ups and negleigence in the world these days, and allways have been . Its almost comforting to realise that where there are humans there are mistakes, and fatal consequesnces sometimes, it seems its nothing particular to Chile, which is maybe a weird statement but I find it keeps things in persepective.

[admin]

Here is a great explanation from a former navy captain about just how something like this could happen:

https://warontherocks.com/2017/06/how-c ... ns-at-sea/

Although he does seem to imply heads will roll, inspite of understanding how it could happen.

[admin]

Picalena,

Your post is as hilarious as it is true. I know the types of people it was directed at.

If I get one more stupid email from someone who knows I am married to a Chilena about the libertarian paradise of Chile ('cause Sovereign Man or International Living or some-similar-such outfit said so) I think I will blow a gasket. It is hard to explain the reality. I usually start with "here's what we had to do to get something notarized in Chile". Yes, it would take two minutes and perhaps one dollar at your local bank in the US. That usually raises some eyebrows.

John Hyre

so a little more back on topic.

When I hear "libertarian" now, I translate that to, 'I don't want to play by the rules, so I am going to move to a country where I don't even know what the rules are and then just make-up my own rules, and dam the consequences'. Thus, why they are easily taken in by all the classic expat scammers and shady attorneys. Essentially, they are attracted to anyone that will tell them what they want to hear, even if it will get them in to a lot of trouble.

Before everyone else with libertarian sympathies, gets bent out of shape about that, yes, I understand that is not what "libertarian" means. However, that is what it often translates to, or more exactly tends to attract people to it, that want a license to make up their own rules and ignore the potential consequences when moving to another country.

I get calls all the time from people, that got sucked in to the "libertarian" or ''second passport" or "whatever the expat scam of the day" is narrative being pushed on the internet, that are crying about how they hired some shady attorney, to opened some shady company, with some shady bank account, to slip a residency through immigration and to try and hide their money in some half-baked corporate structure, and then got ripped off by the attorney or their local "friend" they gave an unlimited power of attorney to because well "they seemed nice" or because whatever expat con artist online they were reading said they could.

Almost without exception, once I start scratching at the surface paint on those sort of stories a little bit, the whole thing starts unraveling. Sure enophe, along the way they were sucked in to some variation of the expat libertarian unicorns and rainbows that convince them that they could come to Chile and there would be no rules, laws, or requirements they would have to follow. Most of all they are surprised that there would be consequences to their actions, and want to blame everyone else but themselves, including all of Chile (how very not libertarian); or, as is frequently the case, lack of action.

Well, they wanted to play fast and loose with the rule of law, and it came back and took a great big chunk out of their rear. Often, it comes back years, and years later. Half of them don't even know they buggered themselves yet. A lot of them we can not help, because they already made such massive errors and mistakes, they are lucky if they just took a bit of a hit to their networth. Some of them, are lucky if they get out of the country before someone gets around to putting them in jail. I guess, in that sense, the legal system not being quicker on it's feet is sort of a 'libertarian paradise'; well, at least, a little umbrella in whatever libertarian cocktail they are drinking. Just, without exception, there will be a hang-over to go with it.

As I have always said, Chile has a built in bullshit shield.

and, people, don't call me up with that (typically american) bullshit about how ''all the attorneys in Chile are crooks" after you got taken advantage of by the shady attorney you hired. Most of the time I am just going to translate that as 'I was too cheap to hire one that was not a crook, to implement my crooked plans, and then tried to stiff them, so they burned me'. At some point, it is not even the crooked attorneys fault when you do everything short of begging them to take your money; again, often with unlimited notarized power of attorney to make your intentions clear to everyone that you wanted them to take your money. I would not be surprised if half the time, the otherwise o.k. attorney, just got too tempted by your stupidity, and figured that someone was going to take your money in Chile sooner or later so it might as well be them. That is not Chile's fault, nor is it unique to Chile. Just about anywhere in the World, if you want to do something shady and semi-legal, cut major corners in everything, if you look hard enophe, yea you will find some very ethically challenged attorney or business "partner" that will take your money.

The ones that especially blow me away, is when I get calls from people that are on like Chilean attorney number three or four, in just a year or two, and thinks somehow, as a businessman, I am even going to take the risk of them as a client. Yea, sometimes people need to change attorneys because the attorney can't do what they want, they have communication problems with their attorney, or they are just not a good fit; that happens, that is normal. We even get a lot of people that hired an attorney, and the attorney made mistakes, was in over their head; but, simply the gringo did not understand what was going on. Fine, you probably need to change attorneys.

However, when you go through a pile of attorneys, in a very short while, it is not a red flag to us. It is a whole warehouse of flairs, to us and every other legit attorney in the country, that there is something very not legit with what you are trying to do.

You can not force a square peg in to a round hole, unless the round hole is sufficiently larger than the square peg. In other words, you have the freedom to do a lot of things in Chile and no one will bother you, as long as it is within the rules, laws, and social norms of Chile.

You want to do something illegal and shady, call someone else. We don't handle criminal law, in any form.

[Andres]

initial results:
The crew of the USS Fitzgerald made “a slew” of mistakes in the minutes leading up to the collision with a Philippine cargo ship

http://nypost.com/2017/07/21/uss-fitzge ... sh-report/

[HybridAmbassador]

initial results:
The crew of the USS Fitzgerald made “a slew” of mistakes in the minutes leading up to the collision with a Philippine cargo ship

http://nypost.com/2017/07/21/uss-fitzge ... sh-report/

The mighty US navy of the world, but I'm very skeptical of its capability in war time, if not even able to avoid a low speed collision with a tanker. What would happen if any interaction may arise among the US navy and the Xi jiping's red navy in south china sea, will the US navy all be sunken by the Chinese navy aegis destroyers ?

[Andres]

Yup. Too much arrogance.
I saw that in design decisions on some of the Royal Australian Navy projects I was on.

(Being semantical, the Chinese do not have "Aegis destroyers", as that is a US system . . . but I understand your intent.
In my humble opinion, it is the missiles and far-more-quiet-non-nuclear submarines the USN need to be worried about.
And the vulnerability of their GPS system, upon (almost) all of the US weapons systems depend.)