Inequality in Chilean society breeds resentment

General topics related to Living in Chile
User avatar
ExpatBob
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1403
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:54 am
Location: Secret underground bunker
Contact:

Re: Inequality in Chilean society breeds resentment

Post by ExpatBob » Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:31 pm

john wrote: Okay, I'll try again. Perhaps you can enlighten us on your reason(s) for using 'de-newspeak-ified' in your previous response.
You didn't try again.
A quick google search will tell you where newspeak came from. Hint: it wasn't Rand.

john
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 6130
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:11 am
Location: Viña del Mar, Chile

Re: Inequality in Chilean society breeds resentment

Post by john » Mon Nov 03, 2014 3:33 pm

Donnybrook wrote:
john wrote:
Donnybrook wrote:Speaking of Ayn Rand, I was out for a drive a couple of weeks ago and passed Galt's Gulch! Big white wall and fancy wooden sign. OK, return to topic.
Any sightings of her or Elvis? :)
No, but we hurried past! It really sits in the middle of nowhere.
Not a very fitting epitaph for the "First Lady of Logic." :wink:
One must care about a world one will not see.
--- Bertrand Russell

john
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 6130
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:11 am
Location: Viña del Mar, Chile

Re: Inequality in Chilean society breeds resentment

Post by john » Mon Nov 03, 2014 4:50 pm

ExpatBob wrote:
john wrote: Okay, I'll try again. Perhaps you can enlighten us on your reason(s) for using 'de-newspeak-ified' in your previous response.
You didn't try again.
A quick google search will tell you where newspeak came from. Hint: it wasn't Rand.
Duh! I know that 'newspeak' is the fictional language in George Orwell's 1984. You've missed my point, which is why did you classify the contents of the two links as newspeak? Please explain.
One must care about a world one will not see.
--- Bertrand Russell

User avatar
ExpatBob
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1403
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:54 am
Location: Secret underground bunker
Contact:

Re: Inequality in Chilean society breeds resentment

Post by ExpatBob » Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:27 pm

Perhaps you should read again what I wrote.

john
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 6130
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:11 am
Location: Viña del Mar, Chile

Re: Inequality in Chilean society breeds resentment

Post by john » Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:40 pm

ExpatBob wrote:Perhaps you should read again what I wrote.
Are you saying there are no global moral imperatives, only personal ones? Would still like to get your comments on the contents of two linked articles. :wink:
One must care about a world one will not see.
--- Bertrand Russell

User avatar
ExpatBob
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1403
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:54 am
Location: Secret underground bunker
Contact:

Re: Inequality in Chilean society breeds resentment

Post by ExpatBob » Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:37 pm

john wrote:
ExpatBob wrote:Perhaps you should read again what I wrote.
Are you saying there are no global moral imperatives, only personal ones? Would still like to get your comments on the contents of two linked articles. :wink:
Took you a few too many tries. Judging by your lack of reading comprehension and your proven inability to reason, I don't think it makes sense for either of us to waste calories debating those articles.

john
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 6130
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:11 am
Location: Viña del Mar, Chile

Re: Inequality in Chilean society breeds resentment

Post by john » Mon Nov 03, 2014 10:24 pm

ExpatBob wrote:
john wrote:
ExpatBob wrote:Perhaps you should read again what I wrote.
Are you saying there are no global moral imperatives, only personal ones? Would still like to get your comments on the contents of two linked articles. :wink:
Took you a few too many tries. Judging by your lack of reading comprehension and your proven inability to reason, I don't think it makes sense for either of us to waste calories debating those articles.
Loosely translated, you are terrified of debating those articles. :lol:
One must care about a world one will not see.
--- Bertrand Russell

User avatar
ExpatBob
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 1403
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:54 am
Location: Secret underground bunker
Contact:

Re: Inequality in Chilean society breeds resentment

Post by ExpatBob » Mon Nov 03, 2014 11:09 pm

zzzzZZZZZZZZZzzzzzZZZZZZZzzzzZZZZZZZ

User avatar
El Presidente
Rank: Chile Forum Tourist
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:59 am
Location: Santiago

Re: Inequality in Chilean society breeds resentment

Post by El Presidente » Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:01 pm

ExpatBob wrote:
john wrote:The following two opinion pieces tackle the global moral imperatives:
Should be de-newspeak-ified to read, "tackle my own personal moral imperatives:"
John, I believe ExpatBob is implying that you, like Big Brother, use 'Newspeak' to control the freedom of thought of the other posters on this forum. You have said that the two articles you linked deal with 'global moral imperatives' (Newspeak) while ExpatBob believes these 'global moral imperatives' are actually 'your own moral imperatives' (Oldspeak) i.e. are only important to you and not the world.

I read both articles and found them quite interesting. I am not a fan of the Catholic church but I am interested in the inequality talk coming from the current pope. However the sceptic in me also sees a desperate and corrupt organisation plying for more 'useful idiots'. Also on Ayn Rand, I haven't read any of her books and only know what I have gathered on articles and wikipedia. From what I have read on her, she seems far too extreme for my constitution but I would still like to see if there is anything of value there (considering the large following she seems to command), if only to confirm what I think I already know.
“We will not go quietly into the night. We will not vanish without a fight. We’re going to live on. We’re going to survive. Today we celebrate our INDEPENDENCE DAY.” - President Thomas J. Whitmore

User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Posts: 21494
Joined: Sat Aug 26, 2006 11:02 pm
Location: Frutillar, Chile
Contact:

Re: Inequality in Chilean society breeds resentment

Post by admin » Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:02 am

Andres wrote:Nothing compares to a bunch of intellectuals deciding how best to resolve inequality for imposition on everyone else.
I bet there was no thought to having a reduction on governments' iron grip on economies so people can get on with being productive instead of having to deal with obstruction.
except when the intellectuals involved, I am sure being part from Chile, all come from the highest economic and educational classes in the society. Hell, someone decided they were worthy of being sent to the U.S. to talk about it, chances are they are politically well connected.

Seriously, most of my professors, in all my years as a professional college bum, likely not a single one of them came from any type of great wealth. Perhaps one or two came from upper middle class society in the U.S. or Europe, but most were there because they got free or nearly free education (or at least higher education was cheaper) in a post WWII world of GI loans or other forms of GOVERMENT WELFARE.

Say, on my recent vacation had the chance to read "outliers" (only readable book at the airport). more about it here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_%28book%29
I support most of the criticism of the reasoning employed, except for the failure of the critics that engage in the basic error of failing to be charitable to the other party in an argument. It was, overall, a book to get your wheels turning. Not bad for a book easily found at many airport shops, even in Chile. About as deep as I wanted to get on my vacation.

Anyway, the major point was, waaaaay too often, in retrospect, do we attribute success (perhaps we can call it the fallacy of libertarianism) to the hard work of the individual (e.g. "he was born with nothing and pulled himself up by his bootstraps" or the myth of the rugged individual). The individual, without support, dropped in a jungle with a pocket knife, is not going to turn in to a multimillionaire flying around in a Lear Jet magically on their own. At best, they might not starve to death (really soon). Likewise, the individual, dropped in to society at birth, is not going to turn in to a multimillionaire (billionaire) on their own. It is a myth in so far as it is the description of a farrow Child, applied to economics, that somehow succeeded on their own. There is no such animal among humans. Never has been, never will be. We are far too fragile.

I like to boast to people, from time to time, that I arrived in Chile with a backpack; Or, I arrived in some other country with nothing more than a backpack; however, that is not the whole story. yea, I figured a lot of things out on my own, but I also had a lot of life experience, before I learned how to figure things out on my own, supported by a whole lot of other people that backed me up. I was not just shoved out of the nest, or airdropped in to Chile. I had years of living and traveling in other cultures and countries before I landed in Chile (likely why I appreciate what Chile really is compared to everywhere else). Look around the forum, we got years of people that tried that, even with money and experience, that did not go so well; However, as has been pointed out, there are certain key factors to the majority of those that do succeed and go on to live a happy life in Chile (i.e., married to a Chilean, lots of friends in Chile, whatever). Not all that different from trying to determine who from the bottom of a society, will make it, and what resources they will require.

By the way, for the record, I was never, ever envious of Bill Gates, until someone told me about him having an arctic tundra tractor airlifted in to Antartic so he could pop in and take his kids on a sunday drive (what is that like a 2-5 million dollar operation, just to drop that thing on the ice). Now I resent him.
Spencer Global Chile: Legal, relocation, and Investment assistance in Chile.
For more information visit: https://www.spencerglobal.com

From USA and outside Chile dial 1-917-727-5985 (U.S.), in Chile dial 65 2 42 1024 or by cell 747 97974.

john
Rank: Chile Forum Citizen
Posts: 6130
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:11 am
Location: Viña del Mar, Chile

Re: Inequality in Chilean society breeds resentment

Post by john » Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:02 am

El Presidente wrote:
ExpatBob wrote:
john wrote:The following two opinion pieces tackle the global moral imperatives:
Should be de-newspeak-ified to read, "tackle my own personal moral imperatives:"
John, I believe ExpatBob is implying that you, like Big Brother, use 'Newspeak' to control the freedom of thought of the other posters on this forum. You have said that the two articles you linked deal with 'global moral imperatives' (Newspeak) while ExpatBob believes these 'global moral imperatives' are actually 'your own moral imperatives' (Oldspeak) i.e. are only important to you and not the world.

I have no idea what ExpatBob is implying, nor do I care. But I assure you that I have no desire, nor do I possess the means, to control the freedom of thought of anyone on this forum…and I find the suggestion very amusing indeed. Moreover, I'm in no doubt that the sources of those articles (The Guardian and New Statesman) would, metaphorically speaking, laugh themselves silly if they knew the contents of their articles had been classified as 'Newspeak'. To continue with the Orwellian terminology, the articles in The Guardian and New Statesman are written in 'Oldspeak', albeit to a higher literary level than most. If you are looking for a media organisation to appropriately affix the 'Newspeak' tag, you don't have to look further than Rupert Murdoch's News Corp (Fox News, et al).
One must care about a world one will not see.
--- Bertrand Russell

texasred
Rank: Chile Forum Tourist
Posts: 24
Joined: Mon Jun 24, 2013 5:48 pm

Re: Inequality in Chilean society breeds resentment

Post by texasred » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:47 pm

john wrote: I have no idea what ExpatBob is implying, nor do I care. But I assure you that I have no desire, nor do I possess the means, to control the freedom of thought of anyone on this forum…and I find the suggestion very amusing indeed. Moreover, I'm in no doubt that the sources of those articles (The Guardian and New Statesman) would, metaphorically speaking, laugh themselves silly if they knew the contents of their articles had been classified as 'Newspeak'. To continue with the Orwellian terminology, the articles in The Guardian and New Statesman are written in 'Oldspeak', albeit to a higher literary level than most. If you are looking for a media organisation to appropriately affix the 'Newspeak' tag, you don't have to look further than Rupert Murdoch's News Corp (Fox News, et al).[/color]
Thank you John for bringing these two articles to our attention. I think they both have something right and both have some things wrong.

What they have right is that there is a common good. This is not just something about human societies, but even applies to such humble creatures as bacteria. There have been some amazing scientific studies of bacteria showing that they recognize bacteria of the same kind and act to promote the lives of their colonies even up to performing self-sacrificing acts. Of course, we are all familiar with the willingness of ants to defend their anthills, wasps to defend their nests, etc. We humans are ourselves colonies of single celled animals, some of whom rush to defend the organism though it means their death (white blood cells). All social animals are so. And maybe all animals are somewhat social. Even tigers will risk their lives for their young.

Not only is there a common good, but two salient features of that good are quite clear: first, that the survival of the group is more important than the survival of any one individual and second, that the creation of the next generation is the paramount work of the group.

It is with the analysis and conclusions of the articles that I have a problem.

In the Guardian article, Larry Elliot's basic idea is that America's upper classes had to be generous to the lower classes because of the cold war with the Soviet Union, but after the fall of the Soviet Union, the pressure was off and so they could cut the rewards to labor and have more for themselves. Also, he thinks markets are not self-correcting, leading to the collapse of 2008, followed by falling wages and trickle up economics rewarding those at the top. I find it stunning that he could present such an analysis without taking any account of the situation at the end of WW2 when America was untouched while the rest of the world was still locked in ages old poverty or devastated by the war; rising competition has had a huge negative effect on American wages. It is even more surprising that he blames this on markets not being self-correcting. Since when has the Fed been a part of the markets? It is the head of a third of the ruling troika (the banking system), the other two parts being the government and the propaganda organs (media and education complex). Whenever things started to turn down, the Fed rushed in with easy money to prop things up, and the government went deeper into debt to pay for more welfare goodies to mollify the people who were facing the brunt of competition from low wage labor abroad. Was it the market that rushed in to save the bankers from their follies? No, it was the Fed and the government, under cover of a cloud of media lies.

In the New Statesman, Darryl Cunningham traces the 2008 collapse to Ayn Rand, ignoring the troika except for the Fed, headed by Ayn Rand acolyte Alan Greenspan.
There may be a lot to the criticism of Greenspan, but one thing you cannot say is that Greenspan was acting like a Randian hero from Atlas Shrugs. A Randian in charge of the Fed would have followed a hard money policy until forced to resign. More excusably, he represents Rand's philosophy as being one of naked self-interest. It isn't, but it isn't hard to see how one can make a leap from Rand's saying things like "Achievement of your happiness is the only moral purpose of your life" to assuming that means even if you have to do it over the dead bodies of those you've murdered. Cunningham's knowledge of Rand is very shallow. She has also said “My philosophy, in essence, is the concept of man as a heroic being, with his own happiness as the moral purpose of his life, with productive achievement as his noblest activity, and reason as his only absolute.” and "all [man's] virtues pertain to the relation of existence and consciousness: rationality, independence, integrity, honesty, justice, productiveness, pride." Those who dislike Rand always miss (or ignore) the emphasis on productivity, which is something that requires effective cooperation, not committing financial crimes or bumping off your competitors.

As for Greenspan, I don't trust the guy, but at least I remember him testifying on occasion that monetary policy couldn't accomplish everything and that Congress should show some spending restraint. Indeed they should, but they have not been able to because, in the pursuit of greater equality, welfare programs have created legions of welfare voters and welfare bureaucrats who vote their interest and a class of politicians who cater to them.

Post Reply