The new constitutional vote and the social crisis

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tiagoabner
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Re: The new constitutional vote and the social crisis

Post by tiagoabner » Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:43 pm

I stand by the theory that there are three groups in play here:

Group 1 includes the vast majority of the population, who believe that Chile is way too inequal. They don't show up in protests, other than occasionally such as in the 4 million march. I believe that they are right, and I would happily pay more taxes to keep the country working. Chilean income tax is way too low, and it has no business being that low given how much can be done. I agree with most of their demands, but I believe that social reforms are the best way to do it.

Group 2 is the one that goes to the protests, but don't act in a violent manner. Those are usually very... indoctrinated? Brainwashed? Extremists? I'm not sure about a good term here that doesn't have negative connotations. My read on them, based on the ones that I actually talked to, is that they aren't open to debate. While they don't actively participate in violent activities, they provide cover for Group 3 before the violent protests happen. In a black and white world, I would say that they are as criminal as those who engage in violent activities. Think about providing cover to a robbery: those providing cover are as guilty as those actually involved in the act.

Group 3 is the one that is actively battling with law-enforcement. No matter how much inequality there is in the country, I'm opposed to their methods as a matter of principle. They aren't animals: they are human, and that makes it much worse for me. They did their actions willingly, and they need to face their consequences.

My read is that: groups 1, 2 and 3 have reasonable demands. Group 3's activities are as criminal as those from cops that are going beyond actions "reasonable and proportional to the danger they are facing". They need to be prosecuted through legal means. Group 2 is as guilty as group 3 due to them providing cover to the violent acts.

Enacting violence in order to meet social demands is the path to a civil war. Chile is a democracy. If there were 4 million+ people willing to change the country, it seems like the time for them to rise up to the challenge with actionable proposals. Become leaders, run for political positions, become neighborhood leaders. While I understand your argument that many are dehumanizing the protestors, I also can't come up with a reason to support them given the methods that they are going with.
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Space Cat
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Re: The new constitutional vote and the social crisis

Post by Space Cat » Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:36 pm

tiagoabner wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:43 pm
Group 3 is the one that is actively battling with law-enforcement.
The Group 3 isn't as monolithic. Yes, there are definitely "professional" fighters that are probably football hooligans during the "peace time" but they are not a majority. I know some chill uni-educated young professionals who were helping to capture a bridge in Valdivia every night.
tiagoabner wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:43 pm
No matter how much inequality there is in the country, I'm opposed to their methods as a matter of principle.
Similarly to the case of fraggle092, I'd go with a bold assumption that this inequality isn't seriously affecting you. Chile of today doesn't make you desperate enough to join even the Group 2, let alone the Group 3.
tiagoabner wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:43 pm
Enacting violence in order to meet social demands is the path to a civil war.
I disagree because there have been large number of similar events that lead to reforms and not civil wars. See the American civil rights movement, see the May '68 in France where their "Groups 3" created enough pressure on the government and elites to act in the interest of the disenfranchised people.
tiagoabner wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:43 pm
Chile is a democracy. If there were 4 million+ people willing to change the country, it seems like the time for them to rise up to the challenge with actionable proposals. Become leaders, run for political positions, become neighborhood leaders.
Again, according to the historical patterns in other developed countries it's a normal situation when electoralism has failed the people.

When I created account on this forum, I was fully sharing your opinion. The older I get, the less I see how it's possible to make governments to move their status quo asses without a threat of damaging their precious economic numbers. Decades pass but they keep paying lip service to the public needs, with no profound reforms in sight.

As a pacifist, I'd very much prefer a general strike instead of violence but así es.

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fraggle092
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Re: The new constitutional vote and the social crisis

Post by fraggle092 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:23 pm

Space Cat wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:36 pm
Similarly to the case of fraggle092, I'd go with a bold assumption that this inequality isn't seriously affecting you. Chile of today doesn't make you desperate enough to join even the Group 2, let alone the Group 3.
Spouting off again about shit you know nothing about. And no, I dont intend to enlighten you.
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tiagoabner
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Re: The new constitutional vote and the social crisis

Post by tiagoabner » Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:50 pm

Space Cat wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:36 pm
tiagoabner wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:43 pm
Group 3 is the one that is actively battling with law-enforcement.
The Group 3 isn't as monolithic. Yes, there are definitely "professional" fighters that are probably football hooligans during the "peace time" but they are not a majority. I know some chill uni-educated young professionals who were helping to capture a bridge in Valdivia every night.
tiagoabner wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:43 pm
No matter how much inequality there is in the country, I'm opposed to their methods as a matter of principle.
Similarly to the case of fraggle092, I'd go with a bold assumption that this inequality isn't seriously affecting you. Chile of today doesn't make you desperate enough to join even the Group 2, let alone the Group 3.
tiagoabner wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:43 pm
Enacting violence in order to meet social demands is the path to a civil war.
I disagree because there have been large number of similar events that lead to reforms and not civil wars. See the American civil rights movement, see the May '68 in France where their "Groups 3" created enough pressure on the government and elites to act in the interest of the disenfranchised people.
tiagoabner wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:43 pm
Chile is a democracy. If there were 4 million+ people willing to change the country, it seems like the time for them to rise up to the challenge with actionable proposals. Become leaders, run for political positions, become neighborhood leaders.
Again, according to the historical patterns in other developed countries it's a normal situation when electoralism has failed the people.

When I created account on this forum, I was fully sharing your opinion. The older I get, the less I see how it's possible to make governments to move their status quo asses without a threat of damaging their precious economic numbers. Decades pass but they keep paying lip service to the public needs, with no profound reforms in sight.

As a pacifist, I'd very much prefer a general strike instead of violence but así es.
Just because I'm not directly affected by the social issues in Chile doesn't mean that I don't understand or sympathize with the protestors. I disagree with the methods from groups 2 and 3, not with their ideals. I would happily pay more taxes to help fund the social reforms.

Thanks for sharing your opinion, though. Although I disagree with you, I respect your right to have a different opinion than mine.
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Space Cat
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Re: The new constitutional vote and the social crisis

Post by Space Cat » Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:01 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:23 pm
Spouting off again about shit you know nothing about.
That's how I roll! Come on, I don't try to put you down but you are painting an extremely one-sided picture of the movement for who knows why.

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Space Cat
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Re: The new constitutional vote and the social crisis

Post by Space Cat » Thu Mar 19, 2020 8:28 pm

tiagoabner wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:50 pm
Just because I'm not directly affected by the social issues in Chile doesn't mean that I don't understand or sympathize with the protestors. I disagree with the methods from groups 2 and 3, not with their ideals. I would happily pay more taxes to help fund the social reforms.

Thanks for sharing your opinion, though. Although I disagree with you, I respect your right to have a different opinion than mine.
I didn't mean you don't understand/sympathize at all. I'm trying to say that it's hard to capture the depth of misery that can make the whole country explode in a couple of days. (I'm not saying that I can fully comprehend it either from my comfy land-buying stock-investing couch.)

Also, the violent protesters have done and keep doing lots of stupid things that could be avoided. But so far we stuck between an angry crowd with no leader to apply the brakes and a tone-deaf government barely willing to cede despite having successful examples of other countries.

Again, not justifying others' shitty actions (those are their choices, the ends shouldn't justify the means), just underlying the diversity and humanity of the more violent group and the causes that produced it in the first place.

Thanks for yours and everybody's opinions here too. I try to keep out of arguing on this topic because it's so complicated. 😑

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Re: The new constitutional vote and the social crisis

Post by PXYC » Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:28 pm

Space Cat wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 6:36 pm
Again, according to the historical patterns in other developed countries it's a normal situation when electoralism has failed the people.
I don't know if I totally understood what you mean here, but "inequality" is the most repeated word I hear on all political discussions since I've arrived to Chile in 2015, and still you have elections and the majority of people that actually bothers to vote elects Piñera!

And then moving forward, it strikes me as a very odd thing that with the very palpable chance political players will effectively change on the next election, I don't see people worried if they will have the right leaders to actually implement what they are marching for! Because I personally feel the opposition has been playing it safe and mainly just riding the protest waves with generic speeches, trying not to offend anyone, not ruining their chances for the next election.

Maybe it's my ignorance here, but it's what I see from my framed foreign point of view.

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Space Cat
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Re: The new constitutional vote and the social crisis

Post by Space Cat » Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:57 pm

Agree, I'm quite frustrated about the lack of inspiring politicians with a vision of future Chile. Say what you want about Bernie's policies but this man built up a grassroots movement in the US single-handedly. Somebody like him is urgently needed here.

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fraggle092
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Re: The new constitutional vote and the social crisis

Post by fraggle092 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:08 pm

If Simios doesn't go down well, what about Orcos then? According to Wikipedia:
(My translation)
This term is also used in Chile to refer to protesters who use hoods to hide their faces. They are violent, destroying both public and private property. They intimidate opponents by threats, and are aided by certain sectors of the Chilean Left, including sponsorship by a significant leftwing group of Diputados and Senators.
.
Orco - Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre.jpg
Priceless....that's what Wikipedia says for now, and they can't be wrong. :)
Until the tireless commie revisionists get to work and make that section disappear.
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Re: The new constitutional vote and the social crisis

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:10 am

Oh well, rejoice other side of the equation as I will be in the Empire when the pleb vote happens and I will not bother to go to downtown LA to vote.
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Re: The new constitutional vote and the social crisis

Post by admin » Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:00 pm

so this is juicy.

https://www.biobiochile.cl/noticias/nac ... inea.shtml

judge tried to release 13 of the "primera linea".

the supreme court not only overruled him, but suspended him.

That should make all those lefty judges nervous.
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