Climate changing in Chile

General topics related to Living in Chile
Britkid
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by Britkid » Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:57 pm

"Consumer is responsible" is a excuse given by companies, true, but "companies are responsible" is an excuse given by people. If we keep making excuses and shifting the blame we are all in trouble.

Most of the effects of the emissions of 2019 will occur in 2050 and 2100 or later. That is a problem because politicians are only around for 10 years. Xi in China might stay longer, but he is already 65 years old. So he doesn't have a properly aligned incentive.

China's carbon emissions per capita are actually on a par with the somewhat economically neoliberal UK, both being 7-8 tonnes of CO2 per year, despite the UK's greater per capita wealth. So I think you are overstating the extent to which authoritarian China is solving this. They may have the ability to pivot more rapidly, and there are signs that they may, but so far they haven't.

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Space Cat
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by Space Cat » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:44 pm

Britkid wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:57 pm
China's carbon emissions per capita are actually on a par with the somewhat economically neoliberal UK, both being 7-8 tonnes of CO2 per year, despite the UK's greater per capita wealth. So I think you are overstating the extent to which authoritarian China is solving this. They may have the ability to pivot more rapidly, and there are signs that they may, but so far they haven't.
They had, there are lots of efforts made, just look at the "Beijing’s 30-Day Average Air Pollution Levels" chart (you can't cheat millions of independent PM2.5 meters):
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018 ... pollution/
China has been the global leader in EV sales since 2015, and is aiming for 7 million annual sales by 2025.
Worldwide, solar panel prices are plunging—allowing a faster shift away from carbon—thanks to the sheer scale of China’s clean-energy investment. It’s spending more than twice as much as the U.S. Two-thirds of solar panels are produced in China...
From another Western source:
China will cut coal consumption, boost electric vehicle sales and shut more outdated steel and coke capacity in the coming three years, the State Council said in a long-awaited 2018 to 2020 pollution action plan published on Tuesday.

at46
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by at46 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:59 pm

Space Cat wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:44 pm
Britkid wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:57 pm
China's carbon emissions per capita are actually on a par with the somewhat economically neoliberal UK, both being 7-8 tonnes of CO2 per year, despite the UK's greater per capita wealth. So I think you are overstating the extent to which authoritarian China is solving this. They may have the ability to pivot more rapidly, and there are signs that they may, but so far they haven't.
They had, there are lots of efforts made, just look at the "Beijing’s 30-Day Average Air Pollution Levels" chart (you can't cheat millions of independent PM2.5 meters):
https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018 ... pollution/
China is on a different level most of us have never seen and will never see (except maybe on youtube). For example, you know why Chinese cars are all so underpowered - with that standard 1.6 liter engine? Because they build flat roads in China so you don't have to shift down to climb a hill - there are no hills. Hills get eliminated through tunnels and viaducts, hundreds of them. Sure they spent a lot of energy to build those tunnels and viaducts but what's better - to have a one time expense of energy to enable a nation-wide energy efficient vehicle fleet or keep building two ton gas guzzlers so you and your better half could travel 20 km one way for a loaf of bread? :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmiKWTRoiMk

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fraggle092
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by fraggle092 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:16 am

SUVs and crossovers made up more than one in three cars sold globally last year—almost tripling their share from just a decade ago. The world increasingly wants these larger vehicles that originated in America. Spurred by rising incomes and lower gas prices, drivers in China, Australia, and other countries are showing a preference for SUVs over smaller sedans. Compared to smaller cars, SUVs are about 30 percent less efficient and they are less likely to have electric versions because there are technological and cost hurdles to powering a larger car with batteries. Further, many automakers believe that drivers of SUVs value power and performance and do not want to be constrained by battery-powered cars with far less range.
https://www.instituteforenergyresearch. ... -pick-ups/
Carmakers have struggled to lower their average fleet emissions because of a shift in customer taste toward heavier, bigger SUVs (sports utility vehicles), which make it harder to maintain the same levels of acceleration and comfort without increasing fuel consumption and pollution.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-volk ... SKCN1PV0K4
.
Energy Consumption.jpg
http://www.columbia.edu/~mhs119/EnergyConsump/
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at46
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by at46 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:30 am

Germany and Russia are switching to LNG/LPG vehicles. I'm sure China will follow suit, once it has secured enough gas supply.

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fraggle092
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by fraggle092 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 12:45 am

Britkid wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:57 pm
China's carbon emissions per capita are actually on a par with the somewhat economically neoliberal UK, both being 7-8 tonnes of CO2 per year, despite the UK's greater per capita wealth.
The world's biggest manufacturer (with 20 times the population) Vs post-industrial UK?
The two countries are not comparable. Be interesting to see what happens if and when the Chinese attain the same living standards (and energy consumption habits) as the Brits.

According to this, in 2013 China generated around 10 Gigatonnes of CO2
And the UK - around 1 Gigatonne
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Britkid
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by Britkid » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:17 pm

Fraggle 092:

Good point that China has managed to already have the same CO2 per person with lower $ per person, but this point can be countered by another point which is that China's current emissions include a lot of manufacturing activity to generate things for people in the UK and elsewhere, and the UK's slight decreases in carbon emissions per capita are not real in a way because they have just offshored their manufacturing to China and elsewhere.

If the numbers were adjusted for this reason, we might see the UK higher per capita (i.e. per person) CO2. However it would still probably remain true that a person of equivalent income levels in China probably has a higher or equivalent footprint than someone in the UK.

I think you are spot on about SUVs. Electric SUVs are rare, expensive, and probably for overall emissions and environmental destruction and global warming and pollution only about on a par to a small or mid sized old petrol car. (Unless you charge them with a solar panel, or you're in somewhere like the UK where you can (and should) easily get 100% renewable electricity to your home. I've heard this is true for the US also.)

SUVs (and trucks/camionetas) are selfish cars in every way - you cause more death and suffering per car accident while offering little or no net protection to the inhabitants of your own car, take up more parking space, more road space, more materials in the construction, more pollution, more global warming, and block the visibility of other road users.

But now, everyone has one, and so do you really want to be the only one on the school run in a small car (i.e. what used to be a regular-sized family cars) with all the looming dangerous hulks of everyone else's SUVs around you. It's another tragedy of the commons.

People driving petrol/diesel SUVs/camionetas that don't have kids are basically committing an antisocial act. In time (I predict 10-20 years), I expect petrol and diesel SUVs and trucks, at least for single people, will come to be seen as something you don't do, like smoking cigarettes in schools or throwing trash on the floor.

We do have an SUV actually, but that is because my wife wanted one and some compromises have to be made in a marriage. She won't let me get rid of it because she feels insecure now going back to the regular car with an old seating position. So that means we possibly can't have an electric or hybrid car for now. But, if there were no such thing as SUVs, if no-one else had one, then I think we would have regular-sized hybrid or electric car right now and she'd be quite happy with it.

The solution has to be very high taxation on the price of new SUVs as well as taxation on petrol.

Britkid
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by Britkid » Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:36 pm

At46,
China is the leader in solar power, wind power and electric cars in terms of total numbers because of its higher population. It’s also the world leader in coal, carbon emissions and polluted cities. You have to look at it on a per person basis. In total numbers for the whole country, China is the biggest at everything. On a per person basis, Norway and California probably have more electric cars that China. China’s electricity grid has more global warming per kW than many places including for example France, the UK, California and Chile.
My argument is that China’s environmental record isn’t significantly better or worse than Europe, that’s all.
My argument is also about the present day – 2019. Some of your arguments in favour of China being cleaner relate to 2020 or 2025. Maybe in 2025 it will get ahead of Europe, we’ll see.

Britkid
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by Britkid » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:28 pm

I just saw a video on the BBC
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia- ... -look-like
about China building a massive new airport.

This would never happen in the UK. We have a debate rumbling on for years now about whether or not to add 1 runway to an existing airport never mind a whole airport.

It's not good for China's environmental credentials at all that they've just build the biggest airport in the world.

In total, China is planning to build 200 airports in addition to all the ones they already have.

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Space Cat
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by Space Cat » Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:19 am

Britkid wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:28 pm
This would never happen in the UK. We have a debate rumbling on for years now about whether or not to...
Yep, sounds like UK!

Sorry, couldn't miss this teasing opportunity. 😀

mem
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by mem » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:11 am

Britkid wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:17 pm

SUVs (and trucks/camionetas) are selfish cars in every way - you cause more death and suffering per car accident while offering little or no net protection to the inhabitants of your own car, take up more parking space, more road space, more materials in the construction, more pollution, more global warming, and block the visibility of other road users.

But now, everyone has one, and so do you really want to be the only one on the school run in a small car (i.e. what used to be a regular-sized family cars) with all the looming dangerous hulks of everyone else's SUVs around you. It's another tragedy of the commons
I am sure what you are saying about SUVs is true in some cases perhaps even the majority of cases with SUV

However, I found that it depends on the vehicle. For instance I was looking at an SUV where the model switched from a traditional frame that most trucks use to a "unibody" frame chassis. So I looked into if these were safer or not than the previous truck style and there were actually studies done showing that unibody chassis SUVs are not only safer for the occupants but also for the occupants of the other vehicle in a crash.
I agree with the other points...SUVs make sense for multi child families and when offroad terrain, ruts, etc are common. But you cant just buy any ole SUV, if safety is a concern not just for you but for anyone who might crash into you.

Britkid
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Re: Climate changing in Chile

Post by Britkid » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:51 am

Space Cat wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:19 am
Britkid wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:28 pm
This would never happen in the UK. We have a debate rumbling on for years now about whether or not to...
Yep, sounds like UK!

Sorry, couldn't miss this teasing opportunity. 😀
Lol, nicely done.

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