What's wrong with this country?

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Seabee
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What's wrong with this country?

Post by Seabee » Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:56 am

I can't comment about it, madness would impair my good judgment, I could end up saying something I'd regret later. This was taken from EMOL
EL Mercurio, Martes 21 de Diciembre de 2010 18:04 wrote: VALPARAÍSO.- Documentos que dan cuenta cómo Carabineros habría impedido hace 11 años la realización de la boda entre un capitán y su novia, fueron revelados este martes.

"No es conveniente que el capitán Rodrigo Gómez Echeverría contraiga matrimonio con la señorita María Lorena Schmolz Catrilef, ya que el entorno social es de estrato bajo incompatible con la condición de cónyuge de un oficial de Carabineros, por lo tanto inadecuado para el desarrollo profesional y familiar de un suboficial", sostiene la resolución firmada por Alberto Galleguillos Urbano en 1999 y publicada hoy por el diario el Mercurio de Valparaíso.

Otro de los documentos revelados es la ratificación de la decisión adoptada en primera instancia y que señala que tras el estudio de los documentos se concluía que "la señorita Schmolz Catrilef, y en especial su grupo familiar, corresponde a un nivel socio-cultural de nivel bajo e incompatible que en nada contribuirían al prestigio del oficial y de Carabineros de Chile".

La mujer también pertenecía a la institución, pero a la rama de suboficiales.

Ambas resoluciones le impidieron a la pareja contraer matrimonio durante 11 años, lo que fue consignado hace algunos días atrás por el diario Las Últimas Noticias que dio a conocer la historia.

Durante todos esos años la pareja decidió mantener oculta su relación. "No me podían ver en la calle con ella. Ir al cine era terrible, teníamos que ir a la sala más lejana de la comisaría donde trabajaba", comentó Rodrigo Gómez a LUN.

El 2007 el capitán cumplió 20 años de servicio y se retiró. Al año siguiente se casaron y actualmente viven en Puerto Octay.
In essence what this article says is during 11 years Carabineros impeded the wedding between a Captain Police officer and his bride due to her low social status!!
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Seabee
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Re: What's wrong with this country?

Post by Seabee » Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:39 am

patagoniax wrote:No surprises. The carabineros is a paramilitary organisation. Note that both of these people were in the carabineros organisation. Other militaries around the world, including the US, entertain or have until recently entertained similar policies and practices. They just call it fraternisation and prohibit such alliances. In the US Air Force, wing commanders were known to similarly pressure officers in areas of their social and personal lives even "disapproving" aspects such as marriages, sometimes under veiled threat of unpopular reassignment.
Looking at this situation from the military perspective, and the way EMOL wrote the story; there is nothing in this article to suggest there was military fraternization in the way I understand it.
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Re: What's wrong with this country?

Post by PenquistaDeCorazon » Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:42 am

Does not surprise me in the least. Nothing does about pacos.

As stated above they are quasi military which should not be the case. In most civilized societies there are the police and the military which is not used against one's own people. But this is Chile after all.

The issue of an officer with a subordinate is one thing but they do go on at length to talk about social status. I imagine their greatest concern, though left unsaid, is the fact that the woman in question was Mapuche.

I realize that many expats view them as very polite, professional, etc. I have no doubt that in their experiences with them they have been. But it is a totally different story if you are poor, indigent, dark skinned.

You may have seen this video in the last week. Since then there have been cases exposed on a daily basis of bus drivers being assaulted, evidence being planted when no drugs were found, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUCycyc3 ... r_embedded

Under Pinochet, Carabineros became part of the junta. Hence the militarization became very pronounced. All I can say is I doubt they treat the ABC1s that live past Plaza Italia in the same way as most Chileans.

Here are a couple of quotes I saw from an article:
"Muy poca gente sabe que hay en Carabineros dos escalafones muy marcados, que son personal de nombramiento institucional, que se denominan PNI y está el otro escalafón que es el de los oficiales, llamado PNS. Así funcionan las Fuerzas Armadas, salvo Policía de Investigaciones donde todos son oficiales. Pero en los otros hay dos castas bien separadas, una tiene la misión de comandar la institución y a la otra le toca la parte de ejecutar. Entonces las diferencias entre esos dos escalafones son bien marcadas en todo tipo de cosas, tanto de forma como de fondo, en la labor que se hace", manifiesta el uniformado en retiro.

Va más allá y da como ejemplo que los oficiales no comen en el mismo casino que el personal de nombramiento institucional y no utilizan el mismo uniforme ni la misma calidad de zapatos.


Rodrigo precisa que cuando ingresan a la Escuela de Oficiales de Carabineros, aunque la persona pertenezca al estrato social más bajo, te enseñan que eres mejor que todos "aunque no lo seas. Te lo inculcan. Estuve tres años y a ti te hacen un lavado de cerebro y te dicen que los que entran aquí son los mejores y los que están afuera son todos 'pencas' (…) Lo que te meten en dos o tres años en la cabeza es súper fuerte y te queda grabado a fuego, sales con una mentalidad diferente; incluso les enseñan a caminar y hablar de otra manera y olvidan lo que en realidad son. Yo salí con 18 años y obviamente a esa edad ese tipo de enseñanzas marcan".

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Seabee
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Re: What's wrong with this country?

Post by Seabee » Thu Dec 23, 2010 11:57 am

What Patagoniax and penquistadecorazon are suggesting is "Military fraternization", which is understandable in the military contex. What bothers me is the fact there is such an amazing social discrimination not only embedded in the Chilean culture, but also institutionalized within the governmental institutions; if social discrimination happens in the police force, also happens in the armed forces and in society in general.

What does the following phrase implies? (Warning: connotation with a triple tier meaning ahead)

"Donde estudiaste?"
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Re: What's wrong with this country?

Post by PenquistaDeCorazon » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:02 pm

Seabee wrote:We are departing from the subject, what bothers me is the fact there are such amazing social discrimination that is not also embedded in the culture but also institutionalized within the governmental institutions; if social discrimination happens in the police force, also happens in the armed forces and in society in general.

What the following phrase implies? (Warning: connotation with a triple tier meaning ahead)

"Donde estudiaste?"
Yup....

Donde vives? Donde estudiaste..... horrendous discrimination at every level. It cuts across all socio-economic levels. I have cousins in Maipu who would look disparagengly at someone who lives in Renca..... As long as there is someone below them on the ladder most Chileans will behave in this way.

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Re: What's wrong with this country?

Post by Seabee » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:04 pm

CORRECT!!
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Re: What's wrong with this country?

Post by Seabee » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:25 pm

patagoniax wrote:
Seabee wrote: What bothers me is the fact there is such an amazing social discrimination not only embedded in the Chilean culture, but also institutionalized within the governmental institutions; if social discrimination happens in the police force, also happens in the armed forces and in society in general.

What does the following phrase implies? (Warning: connotation with a triple tier meaning ahead)

"Donde estudiaste?"
Pretty much the same as in the US. Ring-knockers are not limited to the US Military Academy (aka West Point officers, vs those who acquired commissions by another means) but this sort of ring-knocking goes on throughout US society, whether it's what school you went to or the university you attended. In this respect Chilean and US societies share a great deal.
The question "Donde estudiaste?" does not refers to what higher education intuition you graduated from ... I wasn't being rhetoric when I said this question has a triple tier meaning
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Re: What's wrong with this country?

Post by PenquistaDeCorazon » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:35 pm

patagoniax wrote:
Seabee wrote: What bothers me is the fact there is such an amazing social discrimination not only embedded in the Chilean culture, but also institutionalized within the governmental institutions; if social discrimination happens in the police force, also happens in the armed forces and in society in general.

What does the following phrase implies? (Warning: connotation with a triple tier meaning ahead)

"Donde estudiaste?"
Pretty much the same as in the US. Ring-knockers are not limited to the US Military Academy (aka West Point officers, vs those who acquired commissions by another means) but this sort of ring-knocking goes on throughout US society, whether it's what school you went to or the university you attended. In this respect Chilean and US societies share a great deal.

The other US Navy reg I was looking for, on fraternisation

OPNAVINST 5370.2B (the preferred rule): Prohibits unduly familiar relationships between officer and enlisted personnel that do not respect the differences in grade or rank (nearly identical language as U.S. NAVY REGULATIONS 1165). It is also a General Order and punishable under Article 92, UCMJ. Relationships covered by this Instruction include unduly familiar relationships between officers and enlisted as well as among officers and enlisted whenever the relationship does not respect the differences in grade or rank. Two different tests are applied, depending on rank of those involved:

One Step Test: Relationship between officer and enlisted: If the relationship is found to be unduly familiar then it is fraternization. Such a relationship is presumed to be prejudicial to good order and discipline. This also applies to relationships between Chief Petty Officers and junior enlisted (E1-E6) within the same command and some specific positional relationships, e.g., recruiter and recruit, instructor and student.

Two Step Test: In relationships between officers or between enlisted personnel fraternization requires an unduly familiar relationship and it must be prejudicial to good order and discipline or service discrediting (there is no presumption that it is prejudicial or service discrediting).
Examples of relationships that may be prejudicial to good order and discipline include: Dating, shared living accommodations, sexual relations, commercial solicitations, private business partnerships, gambling and borrowing money.

Miscellaneous: The Instruction does not require a direct senior-subordinate supervisory relationship. A subsequent marriage does not excuse or mitigate any illegal conduct. The Instruction is gender neutral.

Relationships with other service personnel: Navy personnel are subject to these rules regardless of the other person’s service affiliation or service rules.
Would you really say that it is the same in the USA Patagoniax? I mean I have no doubt that it happens amongst Ivy Leaguers or say with people that vacation in the Hamptons and the like. But in Chile it is everywhere and at every level.

All I know is that when I played rec hockey here on our team we had a doctor, 2 engineers, a plumber, a roofer and a waiter to name a few. Here in Canada you can have a plumber or carpenter living next to a doctor. No one looks down on you if you went to trade school as opposed to university. In this economy riight now trades are where it's at in Canada. If I go to see my family doctor he treats me politely even if I am not wearing designer clothes, if I go to the bank and have dirty jeans cause I've been working in the yard I am treated well. All I know is when I go to Chile and we go to Las condes, Vitacura to shop I sense a certain level of eliticism... I do not bother to overdress in fancy labels.... I am as white as Chilean can be but have no gringo accent and no cuico accent and that is enough for me to get that you don't really belong here look. And no pulling out x number of platinum or gold credit cards changes how they look at ya cause I will always just be someone who does not belong there.

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Re: What's wrong with this country?

Post by PenquistaDeCorazon » Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:11 pm

patagoniax wrote:I was referring to similarities between the treatment according to perceived differences in socioeconomic status in the US and in Chile. This is not "same as" but some similarities do exist. Perhaps not universally, but certainly not uncommonly. You will certainly see substantial prejudicial differences in interactions. The guy who looks and sounds like he just came off the res, or the black guy with the hoodie and dreadlocks, is usually going to get treatment that differs from the way officials treat Lindsay. Even if you got those guys to cut their hair and dress up like Santa Monicans or Torontans, the same sort of prejudicial treatment that you describe in Chile also will often be found in the US -- and in many other countries. Nobody is denying strong class distinctions and corresponding prejudicial treatment in Chile -- I certainly agree with you. But don't let that make you feel in any way unique, or any sort of special victim, because you don't have to look far to find it, in various flavours, throughout the world.
JAJA.... No I do not feel a victim. Actucally. I was making the point that boy I wonder what type of tratment I would receive if I were Mapuche and poor. Well of course we know the answer. But yeah I do not feel a victim when I am in Chile. I realize that I am in a priviledged position.

And I do concurr with what you say about guys from the hood or rez.... Discrimination of the extreme cases will happen anywhere. It's just that in Chile you can be a perfectably respectable person and be looked down upon based merely on your last name, or the fact that you did not go to university, or the wrong one.

Well gotta run. You all have yourselves a very Merry Xmas and all the best in 2011!

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Re: What's wrong with this country?

Post by Seabee » Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:35 pm

The "¿Donde estudiaste?" or "Where did you study?" does not automatically mean "From which university did you graduate?" or "Where did you attend college?" Rather, this question literally means "Where did you go from Kindergarten to 12th grade?"

The "¿Donde estudiaste?" or "Where did you study?" question is by defacto a discriminatory question, those who pose the question want nothing more than to tell YOU where THEY went to school because in their mind, something about the school is better than yours, there is no justification for such a mundane question. This question is usually third or fourth in a conversation between adults who are meeting for the first time, usually following suit shortly after "What's your name," "What do you do," "Are you married/have kids?"

It's hard to believe that anyone would care where one went to school 20, 30, even 40 years ago especially in light of the fact that most real-world experience is obtained later in life, in college and post-college. Perhaps this is why I find it more relevant to be asked where I attended college and what it is I studied there.

The answer to the infamous question does not grace the person answering with some kind of admirable quality or attribute. After all, they didn't decide where to go to school - their parents decided that FOR them. If the person did happen to attend one of the brand name schools, does that mean that the parents are worthy of all the merit? I think it depends. Taking that into consideration, when someone in Chile asks you where you went to school, what if they're really asking "how much money did your family have while you were growing up?" Which actually equates to asking for the family's financial statement prior to engaging someone in conversation, interviewing them for a position or, generally speaking, deciding their worth as a human being.
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Re: What's wrong with this country?

Post by nwdiver » Thu Dec 23, 2010 5:52 pm

Hey Canada’s last Commanding Officer in Afghanistan is up for court marshal for playing in the ranks. No mean No, eh.
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Re: What's wrong with this country?

Post by admin » Thu Dec 23, 2010 6:50 pm

O.k., class system is very hard wired in Chilean society, but inside a military or paramilitary organization (hey, the U.S. police forces are paramilitary also and so are the firefighters) that has been a tradition for thousands of years. Nobles and surfs fought on very different battle fields.

Commanders have to be able to order people to their death, and also not have their orders questioned (or so the theory goes). Much harder for someone to order someone to their death when they are sleeping with them. So, it is a very long standing tradition.

The difference between the nobles / lords / generals and the commoners that died is now what we call officers and enlisted. Almost every organization in the world that uses the military organization system, has forbidden those sort of close relationships. It is only in the last say 10-20 years or so that it has started to change around the World. Still you would be hard pressed even in the most liberal military to find them allowing married people to be in the same unit or under each other's direct command. So this is a long-standing taboo of military organizations, so what. They have always been sort of crusty and backwards.

There was a point in U.S. military where it was forbidden for none commissioned soldiers to even be married at all. Single people seem more willing to die when told to do so.

So is it right? No. Is it surprising or something special in Chile? Not really.

Remember, Chile is still working on divorce. Now if the officer in question would like to marry someone better suited to his station, separate permanently from his wife, and maintain the other as his mistress (or two or three others) that is completely socially acceptable and no one would give it a second thought. :lol:
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