Worth Getting Citizenship?

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Donnybrook
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Re: Worth Getting Citizenship?

Post by Donnybrook » Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:01 am

lost gringo wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:36 am
Does anyone know if having three passports from three different countries is possible or even legally permitted?
I have two others now, don't really need the Chileno passport which would be the third but Chile is my principal country of residence now.
I'm concerned, as others here have pointed out, that there may be problems in the future with only having permanent residency in Chile.

The tramite for citizenship doesn't sound very appealing to me either.
I have the possibility of three passports. My residency here is tied to one citizenship so now I just use that passport. I let the other two expire. But I may be renewing one soon because of Brexit. A family member has moved to Italy and I want an EU passport otherwise I would not have bothered. Most countries don't mind if you have more than one but prefer that you use them one at a time! But the USA may be different as it is in a lot of things.

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Re: Worth Getting Citizenship?

Post by admin » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:01 am

paladin wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:44 pm
Admin, I’m confused by you comments anout assets being subject/not subject to estate taxes here. The article that I referred to specifically relates to “ extranjeros” who acquired assets outside of Chile from funds that originated outside Chile. This therefore dors not appear to apply to citizens as well. Is that how you read it also ?
i am totaly not understanding what you are saying.

i believe you are confusing tax residency, with citizenship and residency in a country. diffrent animals.
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Re: Worth Getting Citizenship?

Post by admin » Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:50 am

well here is one for u.s. citizens, and everyone else for that matter.

the u.s. goverment now has the power to adminstratively deny or cancel your passport for as little $50,000 u.s. in unpaid taxes or penalties. They have not used it much yet, but they will. just wait for it.

and, basicaly if the IRS thinks you broke any tax law, almost all of the penalties have a $50,000 fine when it comes to expats. you don't even need to owe any taxes to hit that threshold.

i have heard the stupid flag wavers say things like, "well just pay your taxes", or "just pay your fine"; they don't even understand how tax system works in the u.s. just trying to fix that could very well bankrupt individuals in legal, accounting fees, and actuely cause more fines. hell, you don't even get to go bankrupt against the IRS.

so, when the u.s. finaly decides it is going to suck the blood out of Americans overseas (low hanging political fruit, as they don't vote and have no congressional rep.), it is the choice between giving up the life you built in another country and effectivly being forced back to the united states, or living in a foreign country with no passport (i.e., no i.d., no travel, etc).

what is the alternative? you got a million dollars or more lieing around to take on the u.s. IRS in court? that you will probably loose anyway?

so for americans, with any sort of life outside the united states, or any pretensions to build a life outside the u.s., I would say it is not optional.

Not if you want to secure what you built. You buy health insurance, fire insurance, car insurance, but when given the option to get insurance that your life won't be turned upside down by a country you no longer live in, you are going to blow it off? call it cheap expat life insurance.

people from other countries, don't smugly think you are not next. especialy you Europeans. have you seen those budget deficits? have you been watching brexit?

i have a friend. born with dutch citizenship. gained american citizenship. he went to get a dutch passport after many years of not having one. they changed the law, and he was never notified. they silently cancelled his citizenship, and he did not even know it. something about if he had not renewed his passport, after obtaining another citizenship, it indicated that he no longer wished to be dutch, or some crap like that.

it can happen to you too.

So, to qualify for citizenship in chile, and not take the opportunity to obtain it while you can, is to assume that chile will always be so easy with their citizenship requirements. Don't assume anything. remember, a decade or so ago, you could not get chilean citizenship without renouncing your other citizenship. they can change that back, or worse.

with the ongoing massive migrants flows around the world, and the political backlash against it, i suspect in the coming years lots of countries are going to tighten the rules for citizenship again. especially when it becomes apparent to conservative political parties that massive spikes in new immigrants becoming citizens can move elections in ways they don't like.

contrary to political myth, citizenship is not a right; and the ultimate manifestation of sovereign power is a boarder. There is a very good reason the most horrific acts in history of humanity commited by humans against other humans, happens at international boarders.

Don't take it for granted.
Spencer Global Chile: Legal, relocation, and Investment assistance in Chile.
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From USA and outside Chile dial 1-917-727-5985 (U.S.), in Chile dial 65 2 42 1024 or by cell 747 97974.

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Re: Worth Getting Citizenship?

Post by paladin » Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:33 pm

admin wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:01 am
paladin wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:44 pm
Admin, I’m confused by you comments anout assets being subject/not subject to estate taxes here. The article that I referred to specifically relates to “ extranjeros” who acquired assets outside of Chile from funds that originated outside Chile. This therefore dors not appear to apply to citizens as well. Is that how you read it also ?
i am totaly not understanding what you are saying.

i believe you are confusing tax residency, with citizenship and residency in a country. diffrent animals.
No, I’m not confusing anything; I’m referring only to estate taxes. If you refer to Ley 16271 Articulo N° 1 inciso 2 and 3 , you will understand my point.

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Re: Worth Getting Citizenship?

Post by Britkid » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:34 am

eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 4:18 pm
In-country, you have to go to PDI first to get the document to renew your PD carnet (every 5 years) at the RC. But yes, in-country you can let your carnet expire with no immigration status impact.
Hm. Good point. I didn't realize that.

So once you have citizenship you can renew every 5 years more easily. If I had citizenship I could probably do this at my local office in Talagante.

Whereas without I will probably have to go to Santiago for the day once every 5 years to get the police certificate.

Managed to find this to verify:

https://www.registrocivil.cl/principal/ ... a-chilenos
Cédula de identidad para extranjeros
Requisitos
Si tiene permanencia definitiva:

Original y fotocopia del Certificado de Permanencia Definitiva otorgado por el Ministerio del Interior.
Original y fotocopia del Certificado de Registro o Vigencia de la Permanencia Definitiva proporcionado por la Policía de Investigaciones, la fecha de emisión de dicho certificado no puede exceder el año de vigencia.

Whereas for Chilean Citizens there are not such requisitos. It's basically just turn up.

Think I need to add that to the reasons to get citizenship.
In 2014/2015 I blogged about my life in Chile. http://web.archive.org/web/201601121940 ... age_id=268

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Re: Worth Getting Citizenship?

Post by admin » Wed Mar 13, 2019 8:57 am

yea, once you have citizenship you just renew your ID at the civil registry like everyone else.
Spencer Global Chile: Legal, relocation, and Investment assistance in Chile.
For more information visit: https://www.spencerglobal.com

From USA and outside Chile dial 1-917-727-5985 (U.S.), in Chile dial 65 2 42 1024 or by cell 747 97974.

mem
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Re: Worth Getting Citizenship?

Post by mem » Wed Mar 13, 2019 11:13 am

admin wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:50 am
well here is one for u.s. citizens, and everyone else for that matter.

the u.s. goverment now has the power to adminstratively deny or cancel your passport for as little $50,000 u.s. in unpaid taxes or penalties. They have not used it much yet, but they will. just wait for it.

and, basicaly if the IRS thinks you broke any tax law, almost all of the penalties have a $50,000 fine when it comes to expats. you don't even need to owe any taxes to hit that threshold.

i have heard the stupid flag wavers say things like, "well just pay your taxes", or "just pay your fine"; they don't even understand how tax system works in the u.s. just trying to fix that could very well bankrupt individuals in legal, accounting fees, and actuely cause more fines. hell, you don't even get to go bankrupt against the IRS.

so, when the u.s. finaly decides it is going to suck the blood out of Americans overseas (low hanging political fruit, as they don't vote and have no congressional rep.), it is the choice between giving up the life you built in another country and effectivly being forced back to the united states, or living in a foreign country with no passport (i.e., no i.d., no travel, etc).

what is the alternative? you got a million dollars or more lieing around to take on the u.s. IRS in court? that you will probably loose anyway?

so for americans, with any sort of life outside the united states, or any pretensions to build a life outside the u.s., I would say it is not optional.

Not if you want to secure what you built. You buy health insurance, fire insurance, car insurance, but when given the option to get insurance that your life won't be turned upside down by a country you no longer live in, you are going to blow it off? call it cheap expat life insurance.

people from other countries, don't smugly think you are not next. especialy you Europeans. have you seen those budget deficits? have you been watching brexit?

i have a friend. born with dutch citizenship. gained american citizenship. he went to get a dutch passport after many years of not having one. they changed the law, and he was never notified. they silently cancelled his citizenship, and he did not even know it. something about if he had not renewed his passport, after obtaining another citizenship, it indicated that he no longer wished to be dutch, or some crap like that.

it can happen to you too.

So, to qualify for citizenship in chile, and not take the opportunity to obtain it while you can, is to assume that chile will always be so easy with their citizenship requirements. Don't assume anything. remember, a decade or so ago, you could not get chilean citizenship without renouncing your other citizenship. they can change that back, or worse.

with the ongoing massive migrants flows around the world, and the political backlash against it, i suspect in the coming years lots of countries are going to tighten the rules for citizenship again. especially when it becomes apparent to conservative political parties that massive spikes in new immigrants becoming citizens can move elections in ways they don't like.

contrary to political myth, citizenship is not a right; and the ultimate manifestation of sovereign power is a boarder. There is a very good reason the most horrific acts in history of humanity commited by humans against other humans, happens at international boarders.

Don't take it for granted.
Yes some excellent points. You never know how things might change. As long as you are merely a resident versus a citizen there is always the chance that you may be singled out. With all the migration and border crisis going on around the world, it would only take some well positioned disasters to have countries totally revamp their immigration policies ( far more than what Chile is already doing) to "serve their citizens".

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Re: Worth Getting Citizenship?

Post by Britkid » Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:24 pm

I managed to think of a lot of arguments in favour of getting citizenship (see my original post), but few if any have much substance in my opinion.

There is only really one good argument against doing it, and that is the longwinded time consuming boring, annoying process that will take time away from fun things. But this argument seems to carry more weight than other arguments.

I think that if you are only likely to stay in the country for 5-10 years, it's not worth the hassle of getting citizenship.

However if you are planning to live here for the rest of your life, it's probably more worth it.

The difficulty is you may not know.

I am skeptical of this theory that one day life might get really difficult for non citizens in some important way. It's certainly a risk, but it seems reasonably low risk to me especially in the short term.
In 2014/2015 I blogged about my life in Chile. http://web.archive.org/web/201601121940 ... age_id=268

paladin
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Re: Worth Getting Citizenship?

Post by paladin » Wed Mar 13, 2019 9:40 pm

Britkid wrote:
Wed Mar 13, 2019 7:24 pm
I managed to think of a lot of arguments in favour of getting citizenship (see my original post), but few if any have much substance in my opinion.

There is only really one good argument against doing it, and that is the longwinded time consuming boring, annoying process that will take time away from fun things. But this argument seems to carry more weight than other arguments.

I think that if you are only likely to stay in the country for 5-10 years, it's not worth the hassle of getting citizenship.

However if you are planning to live here for the rest of your life, it's probably more worth it.

The difficulty is you may not know.

I am skeptical of this theory that one day life might get really difficult for non citizens in some important way. It's certainly a risk, but it seems reasonably low risk to me especially in the short term.

I agree with you, if it werent for the bureaucracy, I’d get citizenship and done with, but on the other hand see no logical reason why the laws would change in such a way that a permanent resident would end up having to leave. Citizenship here can be taken away from you, but not from the UK if you were born there.

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Re: Worth Getting Citizenship?

Post by admin » Thu Mar 14, 2019 11:29 am

paladin wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 8:33 pm
admin wrote:
Tue Mar 12, 2019 9:01 am
paladin wrote:
Mon Mar 11, 2019 8:44 pm
Admin, I’m confused by you comments anout assets being subject/not subject to estate taxes here. The article that I referred to specifically relates to “ extranjeros” who acquired assets outside of Chile from funds that originated outside Chile. This therefore dors not appear to apply to citizens as well. Is that how you read it also ?
i am totaly not understanding what you are saying.

i believe you are confusing tax residency, with citizenship and residency in a country. diffrent animals.
No, I’m not confusing anything; I’m referring only to estate taxes. If you refer to Ley 16271 Articulo N° 1 inciso 2 and 3 , you will understand my point.
Yea, I think we were talking past each other; but, that does not exclude conveying ownership in your will in Chile. Just inheritance tax.

At the end of the day, whatever you have outside of the country, and how it get's passed along to the whomever, will come down to how that jurisdiction handles foreign wills and foreign probate procedures, courts, etc under their law. For example, typically countries don't like giving up control of real estate to a foreign court, because it directly undermines their sovereignty. Some countries, don't really care. A will is a will, as long as it is not contradicting some local law or another will.

As my father, a U.S. attorney, was fond of saying, "possession is 9/10ths of the law, here, there, and everywhere".

We have found for example insurance companies in the U.S. seem to have no problem with Chilean inheritance laws. They seem more than willing to sign over assets to inheritors, based on Chilean probate procedures, absent any other contradicting claims or rights to it. I think their legal departments tend to look at it as, 'we are required to hand this money over to someone, if there is going to be a fight over the money, let's make it someone else's problem'. In other words, they prefer to convert a potential costly legal problem for them in to a legal problem between the inheritors. So, they kind of take the "just get it off our books" approach to it.
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Re: Worth Getting Citizenship?

Post by ghibli » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:34 am

On the subject of renewing cedulas - mine expires in six months. I'm wondering how much time to allow for renewal - and - whether I may start the process now, for example, or soon. The next challenge of course will be applying for citizenship. Any thoughts? Thanks.

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Re: Worth Getting Citizenship?

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:53 am

If no lines you can do PDI and RC the same day. RC said it could be 4 weeks for a foreigner cedula but it was ready in 1.5 weeks.
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