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Re: chile's migration crisis

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 10:08 am
by admin
helps, but is not required.

proof of resources to support themselves and the family is still required.

Re: chile's migration crisis

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 1:11 pm
by GAminer
mem wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 4:36 pm
admin wrote:
Sun May 26, 2019 3:04 pm
it looks like these wankers were not only smuggling chinese, but charging them $5,000 u.s. for just a tourist visa. Are you frigen kidding me?

there was a story a few years ago about a shipping container full of chinese smuggled in to Europe, and then they just left them at the port to die. the people paid $50,000 u.s. each to die in a container.

Guess i need to step-up my advertising for LEGAL immigration from china, because we don't charge even remotely anything like that to our Chinese clients, for residency aplications. we don't even charge for the tourist visa phase, because it is free at the consulate in China.

These guys were doing nothing but running a con.
My first thought was basically the same...huh? what? Whoa really? $5000 USD to just get to Chile on a tourist visa? According to the beggarly wikipedia

Code: Select all

"Citizens of  China can apply for a no-fee tourist or business visa, or visit Chile without a visa for up to 90 days"

I don't get it...are these poor Chinese (empathetically versus economically) just ignorant of current immigration law betwixt China and Chile? (actually pretty likley if they cant speak/read english or spanish?) Did that $5K USD include airfare (or whatever other 'transport') and something more than a tourist visa...regardless of the lie behind it? If it did...well maybe somehow that might begin to make slightly more sense than this abject rejection of all that is sensible on the part of the victims.

I have to admit I have been somewhat puzzled at why a Chinese citizen would want to move to and live in Chile. Though, of course, I am sure many Chileans ask themselves the exact same question of me. "Why would a USA citizen want to move to and live in Chile? Is he nutz? <snark>I'd kill to get me let alone my family to the glistening perfection that is the life of living in the USA"</snark> Chileans have told me this time and time again, albeit I am paraphrasing with a twist of snark
I guess the more specific point of that question is Chile versus somewhere else...Europe or other parts of Asia.

Of course I have quite a few reasons for rejecting Europe and Asia for longterm family relocation, and likely they do as well. There is still, without exaggeration, nowhere else that ticks all my boxes like Chile. Not Uruguay, not Andorra, not Switzerland, not Singapore, not Hong Kong.

Only Chile out of all other countries on the earth. Maybe they see the same thing many of us do

It is one thing if they have resources and a plan to execute on where they are moving versus another thing where sometimes immigrants just want to mooch off the incoming state in every possible way. I mean the fewer minority that turn mooching into a science and even brag about their exploits.
To be clear...I doubt this pejorative category encompasses the affected Chinese immigrants in this story.

In my estimation, these Chinese immigrants were probably most (not all) reasonably well heeled. Wanted out of living in China. Wanted to get their money out of China, and probably could only speak and read Mandarin and/or Cantonese. They can probably read the writing on the wall of new. They probably dream of living somewhere reasonably rural where the human to square meter density ratio is less than 1.

So they wanted to buy longterm liberty and security and wanted to be in a country that was basically China friendly. If they are smart and can recognize the fundamental value that Chile provides one who lives here....just as almost all of us can relate to.


Then, honestly I can relate to a lot of that.

I am glad these scumbags are out of business defrauding them needlessly
Just curious, and excuse me if I am being rude, but are you financially independent (all income generated outside of Chile)? I ask, because in my opinion the worst part of living in Chile is working in a Chilean company or for Chileans. Their level of professionalism is non existent and there is a lot of incompetence due to nepotism. Not to mention the laziness and excuses.

Re: chile's migration crisis

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 1:53 pm
by admin
A bit off topic, but I will bite.

The only piece of advice that trickled down to me from my grandfather I never met, "work for yourself".

You are not going to get rich working for someone else in Chile, and that is pretty much true everywhere in the World.

As my old partner that was a small business finance professor use to say, "the point of working for someone else is to get them ahead, not you".

Yea, there are some "good paying" jobs in Chile (e.g. CEO of a company, politician, etc), but there is definitely a ceiling where you have to be self-employed if you want to be "rich" (however you want to define that) in Chile.

It is probably why many immigrants can do so well in Chile, because out of necessity or just personal motivation, they tend to be self-employed in some capacity. I think part of that is the nature of international migration, regardless of motive pushing someone to move, involves people willing to take risk and start over.

I always love the interview with Richard Branson, that was asked what he would do if he lost his money and had to started over. He said that he would start another business or company, and argued that working for someone else was the riskiest thing you could do because when a business runs in to trouble the boss / owner is the last person fired. The grunts on the factory floor or the secretary, are the first to go. You get the downside risk, without any of the up side rewards working for someone else.

An old economics professor I had said essentially the same thing, "we can teach people in schools everything there is to know about mitigating risk in business, but we can not teach them to take a risk in the first place".

I just have this inclination that the sorts of people willing to move internationally, are also the sorts of people that are willing to take risk, figure things out on the fly, adapt to their environment, etc. Even among refugees or people with very serious motives to leave, it still takes a leap of psychological inclination to be a adaptable risk taker to make it happen. This is supported by study after study on the subject, including among them that people after about 30 years old tend not to migrate. It is mostly a young person's game.

Re: chile's migration crisis

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 2:34 pm
by nwdiver
admin wrote:
Mon May 27, 2019 1:53 pm
A bit off topic, but I will bite.

The only piece of advice that trickled down to me from my grandfather I never met, "work for yourself".

You are not going to get rich working for someone else in Chile, and that is pretty much true everywhere in the World.

As my old partner that was a small business finance professor use to say, "the point of working for someone else is to get them ahead, not you".

Yea, there are some "good paying" jobs in Chile (e.g. CEO of a company, politician, etc), but there is definitely a ceiling where you have to be self-employed if you want to be "rich" (however you want to define that) in Chile.

It is probably why many immigrants can do so well in Chile, because out of necessity or just personal motivation, they tend to be self-employed in some capacity. I think part of that is the nature of international migration, regardless of motive pushing someone to move, involves people willing to take risk and start over.

I always love the interview with Richard Branson, that was asked what he would do if he lost his money and had to started over. He said that he would start another business or company, and argued that working for someone else was the riskiest thing you could do because when a business runs in to trouble the boss / owner is the last person fired. The grunts on the factory floor or the secretary, are the first to go. You get the downside risk, without any of the up side rewards working for someone else.

An old economics professor I had said essentially the same thing, "we can teach people in schools everything there is to know about mitigating risk in business, but we can not teach them to take a risk in the first place".

I just have this inclination that the sorts of people willing to move internationally, are also the sorts of people that are willing to take risk, figure things out on the fly, adapt to their environment, etc. Even among refugees or people with very serious motives to leave, it still takes a leap of psychological inclination to be a adaptable risk taker to make it happen. This is supported by study after study on the subject, including among them that people after about 30 years old tend not to migrate. It is mostly a young person's game.
Branson had a much more ponient say that Chileans should live by.....I did OK using it....

Educate and train your employees so they can work for any other company, BUT threat them well so they only want to work for you....

Re: chile's migration crisis

Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 8:32 am
by 41southchile
Heres a Bloomberg story claiming Venezuelans immigration numbers have gone back to their peak in last few quarters.
Chiles total Immigrant population has gone from just over 2 to just over 6 percent in recent years (so still actually quite low as an overall percentage).
And they are considering lowering interest rates due to immigration influx.
To be honest I cant see anything bad about this situation. Especially here in Los Lagos.
I read something the other day that surprised me in Los Lagos region The population as a whole of those under 18yrs went from like 20 to 16 percent of population in less than 5 years ( 2012 to 2017) while those over 65yrs went from 17 to 22 percent . Aging very fast.
Annectodaly customer service satisfaction in places where Venezuelans work own business has never been higher and a most of these immigrants are young and bringing skills.
This region is not going anywhere without more labour, skills and young people, and lower interest rates to boot, keep em coming I say.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... output-gap

Re: chile's migration crisis

Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 8:49 am
by tiagoabner
Non-paywall link to the article: https://outline.com/U2NAXD

Lowering the growth rates will be good, but the true reason why immigrants aren't really integrated with the Chilean banking and credit card system is because they can't.

Due to the way the Chilean banking system is setup, you can only get a real account after getting permanent residency, roughly two years after getting to the country. It could be faster, but bureaucracy and residence visa processing times are a thing. Meanwhile, you can only get a real bank account if you work for a company that has agreements with a bank, which isn't the case for the majority of immigrants. Since they don't have access to credit, they get in the habit of saving to purchase what they need on cash.

It's no wonder they aren't as quick as Chileans to dip into credit: they simply cannot do it.

As an anecdote: when I was out of the country, I moved to Portugal for work and I stayed there for about six months. I opened a full-fledged bank account on day 1, and it included credit lines and a credit card. They had no issue with accepting a letter from my bank manager, a bank statement and my last tax return as proof of income. Yeah, I showed them that I wasn't a random broke guy, but the point is that the was a built-in mechanism for you to get integrated in the banking system.

Re: chile's migration crisis

Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 10:36 am
by admin
yea, if you are going to have a massive influx of migrants, don't make them stand around doing nothing. that is just pure trouble for everyone.

i noticed as soon as the residences started getting aproved from the amnesty last year, most of the haitens disappeared in puerto montt or at least you dont see dozens of them selling candy bars on a single intersection anymore. i think a lot of them left for other parts of chile, but a lot more simply went and found a job now that they have work permits.

Re: chile's migration crisis

Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 11:50 am
by tiagoabner
I wonder who's interested in keeping things as they are. Given how large the influx of immigrants has been, there should've been some politics viewing it as an opportunity to nurture a future generation of voters. I'm not sure if it's simply inaction, or if there is an underlying cause for not keeping things up-to-date with the rest of the world.

Re: chile's migration crisis

Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 12:35 pm
by 41southchile
tiagoabner wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 11:50 am
I wonder who's interested in keeping things as they are. Given how large the influx of immigrants has been, there should've been some politics viewing it as an opportunity to nurture a future generation of voters. I'm not sure if it's simply inaction, or if there is an underlying cause for not keeping things up-to-date with the rest of the world.
How do you mean keeping things up to date with the rest of the world? But yeah that's part of it, Chiles crappy immigration rules were quite outdated , when no one gave Chile a second thought that was fine.
When it was suddenly a place people wanted to move to for whatever reason then the slow bureaucracy collapsed along the way people smugglers and empressarios, politicos etc. all took advantage of the situation.
When countries are doing well economically people want to move there.
Politicos on the right love it as it can cover sluggish economic growth, with more economic activity from new comers, by picking and choosing the right types, no shortage of able immigrants wanting to come in. Politicos on the left love it because the can buy new voters with bonos and promises by opening the immigration gates

Re: chile's migration crisis

Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 2:03 pm
by fraggle092
tiagoabner wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 11:50 am
I wonder who's interested in keeping things as they are.
All the enchufados who batten off the current system. Why change a good thing? Good for them, that is.
tiagoabner wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 11:50 am
Given how large the influx of immigrants has been, there should've been some politics viewing it as an opportunity to nurture a future generation of voters.
This was already brought up some years ago on this forum even while the Bachelet administration was allowing this backdoor immigration to go on. No doubt the Socialists are assiduously working along those lines, after all it was a Socialist government that let them in. There may be some lingering indebtedness there to capitalize on. Probably see a lot more activity once the immigrants transition to full residency with voting rights.

Re: chile's migration crisis

Posted: Tue May 28, 2019 4:37 pm
by eeuunikkeiexpat
fraggle092 wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 2:03 pm
tiagoabner wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 11:50 am
Given how large the influx of immigrants has been, there should've been some politics viewing it as an opportunity to nurture a future generation of voters.
This was already brought up some years ago on this forum even while the Bachelet administration was allowing this backdoor immigration to go on. No doubt the Socialists are assiduously working along those lines, after all it was a Socialist government that let them in. There may be some lingering indebtedness there to capitalize on. Probably see a lot more activity once the immigrants transition to full residency with voting rights.
Back in the early days of the campaigning for the 2018 election, this ethnic gringo PD saw the Frente Amplio type campaigners on the streets of San Antonio talking to Haitians who obviously had a ways to go before ever being able to vote. They paid no attention at all to this non-white but not black immigrant walking the same streets.

Re: chile's migration crisis

Posted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:04 pm
by tiagoabner
Any thought on this news article?

https://www.biobiochile.cl/noticias/nac ... ivia.shtml

It seems these guys are spreading anti-Haitian propaganda in Valdivia. Not sure how effective that would be in terms of affecting immigration - most likely not at all - but I'm kind of surprised. I always thought Chileans were more of the passive-aggressive types.