chile's migration crisis

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eeuunikkeiexpat
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:56 am

If you read the previous posts, the direct flight planes are fully booked through next year. And if you live in Santiago and areas they have flooded into like San Antonio the difference on the streets can be striking. Most are ending up living in poor neighborhoods of Santiago in contact with the best of flaite, roto, badly educated, ignorant Shiiile...hope no reaction happens there. So really, there are that many jobs in Chile? Admin already reported the Congress will be allocating a very nice chunk of funds to help them out.

BTW, many developed nations got there by being Empires or allied with one sucking out resources cheaply and dictating terms of trade to most of the developing ones but culture indeed plays an important role in development under the current mixed capitalist system.
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Julito
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by Julito » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:09 pm

Yes and the Spanish blew their Empire, they peed the money up against the wall buying titles for themselves, banning millinery in Spain then paying the British French and Italians exorbitant sums for all the finery and other trappings of wealth. Culture indeed.

Re NZ, sure, they were part of the British Empire but a tiny isolated country. All they had to offer was wool, timber and dairy products but in spite of that they diversified and rapidly developed. Then there's Iceland with an entirely different history and even less to offer the world, but developed. Culture again.

As a well travelled 30 something Chilean said to me a few months ago, "Chile's run out of excuses".

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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by Julito » Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:41 pm

Just as you can't judge the majority of any immigrant group by the actions of a minority. Australia has the Italian Mafia and numerous other criminal groups from various countries and they all got a toe hold through immigration.

As to street gangs, not so much. But I suggest part of the gang problem in the US is due to the guns and drug culture. Bored young men and guns will always get together anywhere gun laws are lax and there's easy money to be made from drugs.

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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by picalena » Sat Aug 26, 2017 2:16 pm

Julito wrote: Tell us where "most are ending up". Is it actually most, or just some? It's early days yet but what I'm seeing around Villarrica is only positive.
The potential powder keg in the 9th region is going to be the Mapuche v. Haitiano issue. The jobs at the grocery stores and restaurants may seem like no big deal, but the Haitianos are beginning to take the agricultural jobs that are often staffed by Mapuche. You may not realize this, but many seasonal harvesting jobs are done by very large groups of Mapuche. If the Haitianos start taking those jobs (which they already have), that is only going to make an already incendiary (yes, I said it) situation extremely explosive. Also, at the government level, you can start to expect the Mapuche to get even more irritated that the funding and assistance that they expect to get is going to get diverted to Haitianos. In the end, there is only one pie, and everyone is already fighting over that pie.

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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by HybridAmbassador » Sat Aug 26, 2017 4:48 pm

picalena wrote:
Julito wrote: Tell us where "most are ending up". Is it actually most, or just some? It's early days yet but what I'm seeing around Villarrica is only positive.
The potential powder keg in the 9th region is going to be the Mapuche v. Haitiano issue. The jobs at the grocery stores and restaurants may seem like no big deal, but the Haitianos are beginning to take the agricultural jobs that are often staffed by Mapuche. You may not realize this, but many seasonal harvesting jobs are done by very large groups of Mapuche. If the Haitianos start taking those jobs (which they already have), that is only going to make an already incendiary (yes, I said it) situation extremely explosive. Also, at the government level, you can start to expect the Mapuche to get even more irritated that the funding and assistance that they expect to get is going to get diverted to Haitianos. In the end, there is only one pie, and everyone is already fighting over that pie.

pl[/quote

Does Mapuche know how to handle a Machete? I have seen the Haitianos weaving their Machetes in La Romana region of DR and they can chop those sugar canes pretty good. Will we see Machete duels among the Mapuches and the Haitianos anytime soon? A mano-a mano Machete weaving fight, my Dollar is on the Haitiano of course...
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by frozen-north » Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:14 pm

Julito wrote:
Yes and the Spanish blew their Empire, they peed the money up against the wall buying titles for themselves, banning millinery in Spain ...
Do you have a reference to this? I tried to find any reference using a search engine, but I found nothing.

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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by Julito » Sat Aug 26, 2017 8:17 pm

Ok mate, just 1 link, but I first learned of it many years ago and shoved it into the general knowledge department. You can expand on it from here over one of your good vinos.
Scroll down to 1.... expulsion of... read on and hit the links. I didn't bother but it's a good place to start.

https://history.stackexchange.com/quest ... ish-empire

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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by frozen-north » Sun Aug 27, 2017 1:13 am

Julito wrote:
Ok mate, just 1 link, but I first learned of it many years ago and shoved it into the general knowledge department. You can expand on it from here over one of your good vinos.
Scroll down to 1.... expulsion of... read on and hit the links. I didn't bother but it's a good place to start.

https://history.stackexchange.com/quest ... ish-empire
Thank you for the link, but so far I have failed to find any reference to what you wrote:
Julito wrote: Yes and the Spanish blew their Empire, they peed the money up against the wall buying titles for themselves, banning millinery in Spain ...
And I am not sure that 'culture' has any relation to it either.

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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by admin » Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:50 am

Well, we finally had a chance to give that law a first pass. Still lot's of cross-referencing with the current laws to be done.

But, as a first pass, few things that can be said so far.

A) this law is incomplete. Someone rushed this out. It is missing the reglamentos. There are massive holes in it.

B) doubt this has much of chance of passing.

Kind of got the impression this was slapped together to shut-up the critics of the Bachelet administration that they were not doing anything about immigration. In short, even if this passed, they are not doing anything about most of the problems in immigration.

Some of the good things, and we still need to checking it against the current laws.

It would create judicial appeals process in the immigration system. Essentially, right now, once you exhaust the appeals process in the administrative end, your done. The new law would allow for taking an immigration appeal to court.

Kind of mixed feelings about that. On the one hand, great; there needs to be an outside check on the arbitrary powers of the bureaucrats. On the other hand, expelling an immigrant from the country will probably get so expensive and convoluted, no one will actually ever be expelled.

They created a 'visitante' visa. Which, so far, looks like a 'jack of all trades, master of none' sort of visa to replace what essentially the tourist visa does now. No more being able to switch from tourist visa to some other visa. No more staying in the country indefinitely on renewed tourist visas.

Essentially, the 'visitante' visa would do that now. It is for up to one year. renewable for one more year. You can request work permission under it. It also allows for applying for temporary residency. suppose to be a catch-all, for pretty much everyone that is not a real tourist.

There is no explanation about who will issue this visa, where do you get it (e.g. consulate, airport, department of immigration, etc); but, in theory not a bad idea. Probably could use a different name, so as not to be confusing.

So far so good, mas o menos.

Well, then you apply for temporary residency, after having received this 'visitante' visa first.

It appears now temporary residency will take two years, to qualify to apply for permanent residency. Yea, yea, I know. That essentially leaves people wishing to live in Chile and do things like qualify for a bank account, contracts, and just have an otherwise normal life, stuck in legal limbo even longer.

Don't get too hung-up on that yet, there are undefined sub-categories, and this still needs to be squared up against existing laws. Which, is also bad, because it seems most of this law is leaving it up to the bureaucrats at immigration to define a lot of things. Too much power to the department of immigration.

Most of the rest of this law is about giving 'rights' and social welfare to immigrants (e.g. education, health care, housing, etc). A whole lot of political bla, bla, blowing smoke up the rear of the far left in congress about human rights and whatever. lots of refugee related stuff.

lots of stuff about barring people with criminal records from entering the country, that looks all hard on crime, but really is already in the current law. So, is really a solution looking for a problem.

Lot's of top end bureaucracy created with various committees in the department of interior for immigration. Not really sure what they are suppose to do, but they are suppose to make up some policies and drink coffee.

Again, lots of stuff to verify and sort out. So don't get too worried about this (leaning more towards, really don't worry about this).

Right now, with both congressional and presidential elections coming, and how unpopular Bachelet is right now, most politicians, even on the left, are treating anything that the Bachelet administration sends to congress as if Bachelet and friends all have Leprosy.

At best, in its current form, this law does not really solve any of the most pressing problems that exist in the immigration system. At worse, it would just create a whole new pile of problems. More than likely, it is not going to do much of anything.

We are probably going to get our names on the congressional testimony list for this, just for good measure, in the event this does get any sort of political traction.
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by admin » Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:19 am

you know earlier, I joked about replacing the department of immigration with an iphone or andriod ap; but, the more I think about it, the more I am kind of taking that idea seriously.

I started thinking along the lines of, what would be a truly modern, revolutionary, immigration system?

My thinking is, if you are not going to have any real criteria for immigrating to Chile, and the public policy is to let everyone in anyway, why even pretend to be selective about it? Why spend all the money on a massive, inefficient bureaucracy, that is just getting in the way of what appears to be a public policy of open immigration?

Essentially, the only thing a warm body needs to do in the government, is verify the identity and standing (e.g. not a wanted criminal) of the person applying. That could be done at the airport by the PDI, when they land. If you wanted to be really hard about it, they could apply online before arriving in the country; allowing the PDI at the airport to have already verified their identity and standing to immigrate (just to speed-up the lines at the airport).

Issue, for those requesting, on the spot, a temporary residency visa. In one or two years, automatically convert it to a permanent residency visa. Perhaps automatically checking that the person did a few basic things like paid their taxes, did not commit any major crimes, etc. That could be done at the civil registry, when they apply for a permanent resident national ID card.

Right now, I would say something like 90 - 95% of the people rejected for immigration to Chile, are rejected due to bureaucratic error; not, that they are somehow intrinsically not eligible for immigration. People are rejected because they did not have the right stamps on some documents, that no one was checking anyway or did not understand what the document said. Or, they are rejected because someone at immigration never opened the file and read it in the first place. Silly stuff. People that leave, most of the time leave because they were just discouraged by the bureaucracy. Not that they did not qualify.

The point is, to do better, what the immigration system is doing so badly right now, you don't need to spend 200+ million dollars a year. For $200,000 dollars a year, including my paid vacation to the carribean, I could happily replace the entire department of immigration with a web application.
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by admin » Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:51 am

In addition to eliminating the bureaucracy that is not needed, how about all the bureaucracy that should have never existed in the first place.

For example, spouses of Chilean citizens. It should be straight to permanent residency. No temp residency b.s., no proving means to support them, etc.

Right now, there is no reason for any of that bureaucracy, but they still force spouses to jump through all those hoops, even though on a functional level no one in the department of immigration effectively has the authority to deny a spouse of Chilean citizen residency. It is just short of constitutional right to residency.

In fact, if open immigration is the policy to be pushed, spouses or parents of Chilean citizens, should be able to apply for citizenship directly. Day one, no b.s.. Chile is a party to a bunch of conventions on rights of family, etc; just save the millions of dollars wasted pretending to even be able to select for those people.

If you want more population, start with the family members of Chileans that are not currently residents or citizens. There is already a right extended to third-generation decedents of Chileans. Well, go all in. Anyone mas o menos, that is related to a Chilean, offer them citizenship.

Once you get all those low hanging fruit, then start dredging the ghettos of the world for warm bodies.

How about permanent residency for anyone with a PHD, or some other super-expensive hard to obtain education that would cost Chile a million dollars, and 30 years of education to produce?

How about $1,000,000 investment, or buy a house in Chile, etc, get's you direct to permanent residency?
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by Gloria » Sun Aug 27, 2017 9:54 am

And to add to the pile...this coming October, Syrian refugees will be settling in Chile.
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