chile's migration crisis

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mem
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by mem » Sat Jul 20, 2019 2:37 pm

eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:13 pm
Wasn't there a conflict with the Korean immigrants back in the 90s which even led some to be deported before more peace evolved and their kids became more or less "chileno" mainstream?

Anyways, this conflict is exactly what I feared and I voiced those concerns more than once on multiple threads regarding this mass illegal immigration a couple years back when people started noticing.

So given the Haitians are living in the flaite comunas of Santiasco bumping shoulders with chilenos who are not the best example to imitate and given the discrimination and bullying going on, the next step is for gangs to develop especially among their kids many of who will officially be born "chileno".

So yeah, black gangs in Chile is probably a done deal.
Yeah, this breakdown is likely if there are no major improvements post haste

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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by ghibli » Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:25 pm

"I have seen the same thing for forty years now. If I had to find a reason, I would say its a self-absorbed, win-at all-costs mentality. If you despise those you consider as "inferiors" and hate and envy your "superiors", it makes for a very frustrating existence. This happens everywhere of course, but here these traits seem unusually noticeable.

And that don't-give-a-shit about anyone-else attitude may explain why there are so many asshole drivers here..."

Dear fraggle092. The most depressing thing about your post is "forty years now." I have met some great chilenos - but they are few in number. They say what you say about the majority of chilenos, which is sad. What is sadder is to think that it may not change any time soon. Every day I wonder how many people will cut me off in traffic - not sky-larking but with malice. I always try for the Art Blakey maxim: "knock em over with love" but some days are harder than others. Chile has a richness of potential which perhaps the population has not yet appreciated.

Re the immigration situation - our topic after all - clearly the prior administration made a hash of the process. I don't see much improvement with the current crowd, alas. However, the haitians I've met and interacted with one on one have been uniformly gentle and polite. Clearly the over crowding in El Centro will lead to problems no matter the antecedents. And the major drug traffic from - peru? no doubt is a factor. Does any one wonder if the $1 Billion of cocaine recently seized on a JPMorgan owned freighter in Philadelphia loaded in chile? or peru? It stopped in both countries, but not in colombia as I recall...

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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by fraggle092 » Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:58 am

ghibli wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:25 pm
Re the immigration situation - our topic after all - clearly the prior administration made a hash of the process. I don't see much improvement with the current crowd, alas.
I believe one of the problems is that there never has been any consensus among the elites about where this country needs to go, they are too busy promoting their own selfish interests.

For example, It still isn't clear why Bachelet permitted that influx of Haitian "Tourists" but it was certainly not for Chile's longterm benefit.

There's nothing new in Chile; 120 years ago Enrique Mac Iver similarly criticized the oligarchy:
El 1 de agosto de 1900 Enrique Mac Iver escribió un célebre artículo. “Me parece que no somos felices”, es una de sus primeras sentencias, advirtiendo sobre una crisis en varios sentidos en la sociedad chilena.
And from El Mostrador (A long and almost apolitical article from a generally centre-left publication)
.
Screenshot-2019-7-21 Cien años después de nuevo la crisis moral de nuestra oligarquía.jpg
And yes, things are so much worse in (insert the country of your choice here) but this is a Chile forum :)
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by 41southchile » Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:37 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 10:58 am
ghibli wrote:
Sat Jul 20, 2019 10:25 pm
Re the immigration situation - our topic after all - clearly the prior administration made a hash of the process. I don't see much improvement with the current crowd, alas.
I believe one of the problems is that there never has been any consensus among the elites about where this country needs to go, they are too busy promoting their own selfish interests.

For example, It still isn't clear why Bachelet permitted that influx of Haitian "Tourists" but it was certainly not for Chile's longterm benefit.

There's nothing new in Chile; 120 years ago Enrique Mac Iver similarly criticized the oligarchy:
El 1 de agosto de 1900 Enrique Mac Iver escribió un célebre artículo. “Me parece que no somos felices”, es una de sus primeras sentencias, advirtiendo sobre una crisis en varios sentidos en la sociedad chilena.
And from El Mostrador (A long and almost apolitical article from a generally centre-left publication)
.
Screenshot-2019-7-21 Cien años después de nuevo la crisis moral de nuestra oligarquía.jpg

And yes, things are so much worse in (insert the country of your choice here) but this is a Chile forum :)
Thanks for the links, interesting stuff, maybe we should start this in another thread,? it doesn't really come under the current migration crisis,
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by fraggle092 » Mon Jul 22, 2019 2:21 pm

41southchile wrote:
Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:37 pm
Thanks for the links, interesting stuff, maybe we should start this in another thread,? it doesn't really come under the current migration crisis,
You're right, it's way off topic. And I'm not an expert either...but history does seem to repeat itself.
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by admin » Mon Jul 22, 2019 7:19 pm

so here is the type of crap that the "refugee advocates" are pushing, and why my own sympathy for them is running thin.

https://www.caracaschronicles.com/2019/ ... and-chile/

this so over the top, i am not even sure where to begin.

they are spinning the problems these people are having, as if chile just arbitrarily invented these laws.

start with the guy that has a little girl, and no way of proving that he is legally her guardian.
For the Legón family, this meant having to reorganize their future on the road. “Our cousins in Chile issued us a certified invitation, but my sister only has an ID card, no passport. I have a passport and my daughter has her birth certificate. They also demanded a consular permit signed by the mother, but we don’t know where she is or what’s become of her. She left and never asked for her daughter again or got in touch with me,” says Rodbeddy.
chile did not just make this up. it is the hague convention on international child abduction. it has been around a while.

then he goes on to mention he has a document, signed by an attorney. That and 50 cents, still does not give you legal guardianship of a child in chile and most of the world.

now i get that is some hard beurocracy to deal with, but it is exactly because of the massive amount of human trafficking that goes on in latin America. those laws were in effect, long before they left Venezuela.

how about this stat:
Since April 2018, over 96,000 visas have been requested, 37,000 of which have been granted; 31,000 are in process and 30,000 have been rejected due to forged documents
.

the bold was added by me. 1/3 of all the aplications had documents thar were forged.

don't you think it might just be a bit reasonable, for a group with such high fraud levels, to impose a little more scrutiny on the documents?

but this is the one that gets me the most:
She’s a teacher from Barquisimeto, and she’s traveling with her husband, a former police officer, and her children of 5 and 2 years old. She’s also with her brother and her sister-in-law. Another sister’s expecting them in Chile. “We didn’t do well in Peru, that’s why we went to Chile. For more job opportunities.
what maduro quit paying you?

not doing well in peru, means you are not a refugee anymore.

that single article, on caracaschronicles.com of all places, was the single greatest argument i have seen for shutting down the Venezuelan migrant train to chile.
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by admin » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:32 pm

well, no more guessing if chileans are turning more against migration. now we have a survey of chileans showing the support for migrants is going down.

https://m.elmostrador.cl/dia/2019/07/22 ... ntera/amp/

the really interesting part is the political makeup of those supporting the expulsion of migrants illegally in the country. lot's of support from those identifying as center to left leaning.
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by admin » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:41 pm

then we have the haiti situation where the government of haiti has simply said they dont have the resources to help haitiens in chile get their police reports.

https://www.biobiochile.cl/noticias/nac ... hile.shtml
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:45 pm

No one wanted to believe it but JAK is probably the next populist blowback of all this against the Chile left-center-right elite.

Anyone still living in their neoliberal expat bubble of tolerance is in the same bubble as I don't live next to them or have to compete with them even though my Chile work ethic sucks but that waiter or store clerk was sooo much better and helpful...ya...po.
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by 41southchile » Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:23 pm

eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:
Mon Jul 22, 2019 8:45 pm
No one wanted to believe it but JAK is probably the next populist blowback of all this against the Chile left-center-right elite.

Anyone still living in their neoliberal expat bubble of tolerance is in the same bubble as I don't live next to them or have to compete with them even though my Chile work ethic sucks but that waiter or store clerk was sooo much better and helpful...ya...po.
I think plenty of people believed it, JAK is a logical conclusion to all this, the writing is on the wall, because who else is there? While I don't agree with JAK on most things I can see how this could play out. Even though JAK is a populist blowhard he is still more palatable than say Jorge Sharp or any other populist blowhard on the FA side.
I don't know if neoliberal expat bubble describes it correctly, I am still thinking what does describe it.
But yeah, for me at least that waiter is a lot better, and the store clerk too, so I'll continue to vist and spend at those businesses that have great staff, but I dont think I live in a neoliberal bubble, I live in a progressive expansionist bubble (don't really know if that describes it either)
And no I'm definitely not competing with them for employment or Chileans for that matter(shit if I was I wouldn't be here). I say make friggin hay ... for the first time in 6 years I have the confidence and security to launch new businesses and projects because there are skilled staff with the right attitude.
Its nothing to with wage costs either , it's to do with having the right reliable staff , which now there are lots of, I have acquaintances that are accountants, builders, restraunters, tourism businesses and farmers all thinking the same thing. So yeah, let the good times roll
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by 41southchile » Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:31 pm

The incorporation of Venezuelans into my businesses will (and has already) actually meant more employment for Chileans too, so it's not black and white when it comes to it.
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by tiagoabner » Mon Jul 22, 2019 10:35 pm

I believe that most expats have some sort of policy against bad customer service, such as not returning to the store/restaurant or straight out walking out if they're not well served. It just happens that the passive-aggressiveness isn't as ingrained in other cultures as it is in Chileans, so immigrants tend to serve you better. But that's my experience.

As an anecdote, I went to a barbershop today and the Dominicans there didn't treat me well (they put a primo to be served at the time I had scheduled with them), so I walked right out of the shop. So it can certainly happen even with immigrants. But I believe this kind of BS is much more common with Chilean service workers, statistically speaking. There's a reason why there's a section on this forum dedicated to bashing on it, after all.

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