chile's migration crisis

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41southchile
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by 41southchile » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:37 am

Gloria wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:11 pm
tiagoabner wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:04 pm
Any thought on this news article?

https://www.biobiochile.cl/noticias/nac ... ivia.shtml

It seems these guys are spreading anti-Haitian propaganda in Valdivia. Not sure how effective that would be in terms of affecting immigration - most likely not at all - but I'm kind of surprised. I always thought Chileans were more of the passive-aggressive types.
Would anybody dare to make any comments in a world of contradictions and hypocrisy where the right to express yourself is constantly oppressed and labeled as discriminatory, xenophobic or racist. Not matter what you do or say, in favor or against especially in immigration issues will always be considered offensive and in some cases even "inhuman" by the general public however behind closed doors is completely different. Freedom of speech is gone forever? or probably never existed? And because of it, little groups are raising their voices of discontent.Chile was not ready for this unfortunately invasion. Chile´s a poor nation. In Santiago are trying to "keep up with the Joneses" in the meantime in towns and small cities there are 1000´s of families without homes, electricity or basic necessities, health institutions are "dead on arrival" and the list goes on and on and the gov. is giving priorities to the avalanche of poor, unskilled immigrants that are paying zero taxes and taking advantage of chilean "benefits" haitians in particular. They are not even capable of learning the hosting country´s language and interpreters have to be hired or demanding that some institutions learn "creole"....that´s what´s called to have big balls.....and speaking of balls they are already procreating like rabbits.....and for that reason chileans are pissed beyond comprehension. Some are saying in public...." they are human just like us"... behind doors.."but don´t bring them to my neighborhood". Immigration will not be affected, correct but at least the flow was slowed down due to Piñera...thank you Mr President.
Everyone likes to claim free speech even when they are spouting fake news, that's the trouble. Of course there should be free speech, but half the time it is simply not true what people say, there are no facts , just emotions. Then they hide behind the free speech arguement while stirring up xenophobia with untrue, provocative comments. Should it just be a free for all for whatever the hell anyone wants to say, even though there is no truth to their comments, and they insight more animosity and hatred?
That's the issue, not free speech per se.
The whole supposed Haitian backlash is a false flag issue perpetrated by those that can finally air their racist attitudes under the guise of wanting to protect Chile from an invasion, wink wink nudge nudge.
The mentality seems to be "I can finally say I dont like blacks because they are a threat to Chiles economic and social success" It is generally started and stirred up by disngenenious people/politicians who see a chance to hide what's really going on economically and socially, it's a distraction strategy to divide the population and continue the status quo.
You claim Chile is a poor county, well if that's the case it sure as hell was before the Haitians got here, its nothing to do with them, and while people carry on with the victim mentality (they stole my job, they dont integrate blah blah blah) towards immigrants it will continue to be poor . Even though technically it's not that poor, it's wealth is badly distributed and many are denied the same opportunities.
Its incompetence, corruption, greed and general laziness and whatever else by vested interests who want to keep the economic and social status quo by keeping all the spoils and opportunities for the 7 families and those that run the show. Poor? Chile should be one of the richest countries in the world.
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by admin » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:04 am

when this whole thing started back when the first haitiens arrived, I kind of figured this was coming. first little downturn in the economy, and out comes the race blaim game.

That formula is so old and predictable, you can set your watch by it. barbarians at the gates, and all that crap.

What ticks me off about it, the bachelet and socialist friends knew this would be the result. They were angling to sow social conflict. because if they did not know it, they really are morons.

The root of power in socialism in latin america is poverty and conflict. when that goes away, so does their political power. The traditional left in chile was fundamentally on the road to extinction, simply due to the rising income levels and growing middle class in chile.

They had to do something to reinforce their base. Now, standby for the next scheduled event. They will come riding to the rescue with promises to solve the social problems they created.
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Space Cat
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by Space Cat » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:00 pm

Well, the extreme right is now reinforced with xenophobic votes.

Meanwhile, Haitians aren't even being deported for crimes (see the table below). If you check the homicide statistics per country, Haiti (10.0) is as safe as Paraguay (9.3), Russia (10.8), and actually safer than "developed" Costa Rica (11.9). When you look at the stats of other Carribean and Central American countries, Haiti doesn't even look bad.

I see Haitians working hard around the city. Nowadays most construction and gardening teams have a "token black" who works totally fine along with the Chilean members. I doubt they all learned Creole, so quit your bullshit, Gloria – learning languages is an inherent human skill that doesn't disappear when your skin is black.

I can agree that an unregulated stream of immigrants is hard on society, public institutions and job markets but it's time to abandon color-based prejudices, it's not even 20th century anymore.

b1ezb039tj231.png

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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by mem » Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:39 pm

It is easier to generalize across groups of people, but a more accurate reality is that there are good eggs and bad eggs in any group of similarly looking people groups (duh). I dislike the term xenophobia just as any other pejorative used to add a phobia as a suffix to some other generalized term across a group of people.

Merit in my view should generally be the metric used to evaluate individuals. What they actually do. The devil in the details is that not everyone wants to or can "evaluate the actions" of every person...so the kneejerk reaction is to find a shortcut to evaluate. If I saw 10 people who looked like X do a bad action, then I will shortcut and assume all people that look like X will do a bad action

This of course can be applied to all the pet predjudices that we coddle and chuckle at on this forum whether it be about Chileans or Argentinians on one side or the haitians or the venezuelans, etc on the other.

I am not trying to saber rattle and virtue signal here, because I understand the need...often...without a wealth of prescient information about every person I encounter...I often make the same generalizations about someone just how they look or talk to determine if I will even engage with them on anything at all.

We can't be expected to get stuck in analysis paralysis ever time we encounter someone, more often than not we have to make snap judgment calls with not enough information. If we find that our snap judgment appear to be right in practice...say 60% or 80% of the time, it is going to reenforce that our shortcut analysis is "working" and we unconsciously accept that we will have a margin of error that is 20-40%. We might miss out on an opportunity for engagement with one of the good egg people, but its basically the cost of living/doing business so to speak

Not advocating that anyone should just wholesale accept everyone or wholesale reject everyone who does or doesn't look a certain way. That is just doomed to failure or at best one of those bad eggs will eventually get ya. We need a shortcut formula to evaluate people with a lack of complete information or even the time to gain complete information on every person we cross paths with.

One rule of thumb I have used with some success while travelling in strange parts of the world to protect myself and my family has been what I call the law of initiation. (to evaluate people without having enough information)

If I get out of the airport in some seedy country in the world...and I am accosted by a bunch of people trying to take my bags and vying for my business to get me in to their taxi to go somewhere. I always ignore everyone trying to initiate on me.

I look in the distance for some disinterested taxi driver and I initiate on them asking for service. If someone is trying to hurt you or scam you or whatever there is a good chance they are going to initiate contact with you..especially when its stranger to stranger. Of course I will pass up a lot of good eggs that are initiating on me, but it is a calculated risk

This has saved my bacon more times than i can count...especially in countries where tourists are essentially targets...which is actually quite a lot out there

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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by Gloria » Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:20 pm

Space Cat wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:00 pm
Well, the extreme right is now reinforced with xenophobic votes.

Meanwhile, Haitians aren't even being deported for crimes (see the table below). If you check the homicide statistics per country, Haiti (10.0) is as safe as Paraguay (9.3), Russia (10.8), and actually safer than "developed" Costa Rica (11.9). When you look at the stats of other Carribean and Central American countries, Haiti doesn't even look bad.

I see Haitians working hard around the city. Nowadays most construction and gardening teams have a "token black" who works totally fine along with the Chilean members. I doubt they all learned Creole, so quit your bullshit, Gloria – learning languages is an inherent human skill that doesn't disappear when your skin is black.

I can agree that an unregulated stream of immigrants is hard on society, public institutions and job markets but it's time to abandon color-based prejudices, it's not even 20th century anymore.


b1ezb039tj231.png
You and your stats....I can tell you where you can shove them! Your stats provide zero information about anything and your babbling is just that. Since Sept 6- 2017 School Cerro Placilla in San Antonio is teaching creole TO CHILEAN STUDENTS due to haitian influx. The page has been deleted from google probably due to comments from San Antonio´s population so I cannot provide a link however remnants are shown. And that´s is just one account. It took years for the chilean gov. to add Mapudungun to many public services however "creole" in just a couple. Insanity! As foreigners is a must to learn the native language of the hosting country or chileans should be forced to study linguistics to accommodate them? Seriously? What a joke! My mother always told me not to argue ........with an imbecile!
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by tiagoabner » Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:22 pm

"Ad hominem (Latin for "to the person"), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a fallacious argumentative strategy whereby genuine discussion of the topic at hand is avoided by instead attacking the character, motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself."
I'm NOT your lawyer, accountant or financial planner. All information at this post should be considered for your entertainment only. Consult a professional before making a decision regarding whatever topic was mentioned in this post.

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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by Gloria » Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:04 pm

......at any point I wanted to argue with anyone and for that reason I made a comment to your question that no one had the nerve to answer risking the personal labeling until an idiot came aboard accusing me of bullshitting and because my level of tolerance is very low I responded......totally reasonable. This conversation started nicely but as always it turns into a mass of male testasterone and shit. I'm at the eve of a trip with little time to answer.
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by admin » Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:13 pm

One rule of thumb I have used with some success while travelling in strange parts of the world to protect myself and my family has been what I call the law of initiation. (to evaluate people without having enough information)

If I get out of the airport in some seedy country in the world...and I am accosted by a bunch of people trying to take my bags and vying for my business to get me in to their taxi to go somewhere. I always ignore everyone trying to initiate on me.
Funny I have similar rule when traveling. I think I had been unconsciously aware of it for years, but it finally solidified in to a formal rule one night in Budapest many years ago. Think I was about 20 at the time. I was walking two girls home from a night club late at night, when we were approached by 4-5 guys asking something (like 3 a.m. late). The thought went through my head, 'what could possibly be in this for me, other than a whole lot of trouble at this time of night on a street in a country I don't know'. That situation definitely had a whole lot of trouble for those girls written all over it. The girls were starting to slow down to try and figure out what they wanted (they were both a bit drunk), and I just grabbed both their hands and dragged them down the street as fast I could before they had a chance to stop. Later, thinking about the situation, I realized I am o.k. with being a considered a bit rude in a situation, because there was a about 1% probability those guys were just lost, wanted to talk to the girls, etc; and about a 99% probability they were not. I am sure those 5 guys got over it long ago.

Basically: don't let someone else set the conditions of the your encounter; and, if it is unavoidable, find a way to change them fast. Which all sorts of good habits flow from that. Like don't let people corner you, don't let anyone in a crowd get to close, etc, etc.
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by Space Cat » Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:16 pm

Gloria wrote:
Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:04 pm
......at any point I wanted to argue with anyone and for that reason I made a comment to your question that no one had the nerve to answer risking the personal labeling until an idiot came aboard accusing me of bullshitting and because my level of tolerance is very low I responded......totally reasonable. This conversation started nicely but as always it turns into a mass of male testasterone and shit. I'm at the eve of a trip with little time to answer.
This conversation wasn't going nicely at least because of the level of hatred you regularly spew in your posts (this is the most active thread in your profile, 104 replies from you which is 11% of the total reply count).

Your phrases like "procreating like rabbits" — WTF is this? Is some "male testosterone" to blame for these gems?

You don't have any sources to confirm your claims about Haitians integrating badly, not learning Spanish, etc. Even if some school decided to teach some students Creole, so what? Is the end of the world coming because of some educational experiment?

I agree that one should at least try learn the language of the host country and would like to see more government sites not only in Creole but in English too. Even so, many first generation immigrants around the world don't speak the host language fluently. I saw Spanish, Chinese and Malay along with English everywhere in San Francisco. Somehow it's not a problem in California, why should it be a problem in Chile?

But whatever, they are not going back. Chile now has a significant population of black people and this is a good thing for the culture plagued with the moronic denial of indigenous genes and whitewashing in media.

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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:13 pm

That's the cultural difference I've seen. US/UK/Can/EU seem to be GENERALLY more open but LATIN countries despite their natural openness tend to be a bit more closed and ignorant but not physically violent. Not necessarily apple and oranges but more apple and pears...say to speak.

There is no developed world "negro" here to comment which wold be interesting. I recall john's wife was a USA negro but she never participated on the forum. Supposed 2000 era John Steel Chile guru was a negro but has long since disappeared.

For those developed world non-white-types, remember, you can use that ignorance to your advantage. Most important is establishing you are not poor. Then play your passport country vs. your genetic roots to your advantage depending on the situation.

But this is a WAY different topic than uncontrolled immigration impacting the social services and feared "genetic" mancha of the pobla...
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by eeuunikkeiexpat » Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:28 pm

I previously mentioned how lower class hoods like Lo Espejo became dominated with Haitians.

It is a fact that the "government" has placed Haitians in general as a group as more "at risk" than poor Chileans who can no longer compete in obtaining daycare and even puestos at the local feria. The local feria in Independencia RM (Karol Cariola comunista area) is now almost all run by Haitians.

They are not criminal and violent like the Colombians, but I'm quite sure their "Chilean" kids will be forming gangs and such in the next decade to counter the discrimination and bullying.

Time will tell. Yes, they are here, so deal with it...
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Re: chile's migration crisis

Post by admin » Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:05 am

Happy refugee day to everyone!!!

:lol: :shock:
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