Digital wallet possible in Chile

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frozen-north
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Re: Digital wallet possible in Chile

Postby frozen-north » Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:09 pm

HybridAmbassador wrote:
like admin said to you before, didn't need to find who posted it, a nit picker.


Instead of admitting you made a mistake in your message you post a stupid reply?

mem
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Re: Digital wallet possible in Chile

Postby mem » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:05 pm

HybridAmbassador wrote:
tiagoabner wrote:Simple solution: don't keep all eggs in a single basket. $200-ish in a bank account somewhere or in cash, don't keep the cash/card next to the phone, buy a new phone in case your current one breaks, problem solved. If you keep all of your money in a single bank account, you will have problems if you lose your card. If you have all of your money bellow your mattress, you will have trouble if you have fire.

You do know that the phone actually only serves as the interface to access remotely your wallet at a cryptographed server, right? As in "phone broke, gets a new $100 phone, access to wallet restored, nothing lost", right? Kind of, let's say, PayPal: you use your electronic device to access the system, but the device getting lost doesn't mean you lose access to your money.

As long as the app uses 256-bit cryptography and you use a good enough password, safety issues should be minimal.



tiago-san, mem knows all that but he wants to rebel for no reason. So no need to educate him on the crypt currency, also when the phone breaks he also knows that will need to get another one or no calling!


Cmon..."rebel for no reason?" "I know all that?" Actually you are totally wrong in your presumptions.

I am pro-cash and pro-privacy and do resist attempts for cashless-ness to proliferate, but there are reasons

No, I don't know that the phone actually serves as only the interface to access your wallet remotely at a "cryptographed server". However, this just raises even more concerns in my opinion and makes the phone part of this equation not even particularly helpful/useful at least to me.

So lets start with the "interface". It sounds like the phone is acting in the role of debit card. You go to pay for something and instead of swiping a card you scan your phone. You lose the card or you lose/break the phone, the funds are still there on some system/bank/server somewhere. Ok fine..some people obviously think it is cool to scan their phone instead of swiping a card.

I actually thought we were talking about storing money on the phone...as in what happens with bitcoin or ethereum. You set it up on a digital wallet on the phone or on a Trezor or whatever other piece of silicon and unless there is some kind of backup made, if you lose/break/hose that device the funds are lost with it. I assume that the subject of this entire thread is not about actual cypto currency like bitcoin an ethereum...it is about fiat currency stored on a phone....and presumably the helpful thing about it is it does not require a Bank account. right? You can buy a car or land or pay rent with your phone and "no bank account is needed".

But then I read the funds are stored on a "cryptographed server". So is that a third party? Acting as my bank, but not called a bank? Something like paypal or something? So there are no real hurdles to "opening an account" on whatever this third party is that has physical possession of the funds on their "cryptographed server" that I only tap into with my phone posing as a debit card?

In terms of counterparty risk...it sounds like instead of trusting a bank to hold your funds you trust a third party private company to hold your funds. Or is it a actually a bank holding the funds but not in a proper regulated bank account...some other type of account that has no real limitations to getting one? But the Cuenta RUT/Vista is basically like that.

mem
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Re: Digital wallet possible in Chile

Postby mem » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:21 pm

tiagoabner wrote:Kind of assumed it would be either a no reason rebellion or a troll post. However, since this is a "serious" forum, I always try to undo this kind of moot point in case someone ingenuous reads it and takes it for truth.

I obviously have no way to know the demographic that access the forum, but since it was one of the major channels used by the outside world to connect with Chile during the last major quake, information posted here tend to have a higher-then-average exposition.

That, or the grumpy old man in me decided to say hi.


So if someone doesn't want to use a phone for financial transactions it must be a "no reason rebellion" or "troll post"?
I don't know how you solved to that conclusion, perhaps because you love using your phone for financial transaction and you can't see why anyonelse would not love it, hence they must be troll's or lacking reason. As I said before, more power to you.

However, I am pro-cash and pro-privacy, and many other Chile expats are...it is part of the reason they left other police states and soon to be police states.

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tiagoabner
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Re: Digital wallet possible in Chile

Postby tiagoabner » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:13 pm

Surely you are within your rights to protect your privacy by discussing on a public forum. By that token, your privacy (at the very least, your physical location) depends entirely on the strength of Admin's password for the forum. The weakest link in any electronic system is the human, that's why scams continue to get people's cash. Simply not using a phone is by no means a warranty your privacy will be protected.

While being pro-cash is also a valid option, you might as well remember that the value of cash depends only on the trust of the market regarding said currency. While it doesn't seem reasonable to assume the US dollar will lose all of it's value, it has lost value regarding other currencies in the last few months. Currencies have lost all of their purchasing power in the past in a matter of years (IE. Venezuelan Bolivar, German Franc). Simply being pro-cash will not protect your wealth: the only real way to be somewhat protected is to be aware about market fluctuations and to act accordingly.

While creating a cryptocurrency or contacting the funds to a cryptocurrency would work to create a system like this, there are 2 barriers: the system would be limited by blockchain processing times (which is bad for payments that are meant to be instantaneous) and there would be the option to trade the currency on a secondary market. The use of a phone to handle the transactions is indeed by no means mandatory, the same way as using a computer to do my translations is not mandatory. However, by using a tool that is convenient for the job, we gain in efficiency. In this case, having a phone allows for you to take it with you and pay on the go, which would not be an option in case you could only access it through a PC.

This kind of system exists in Japan for years. I would advise you to do a quick Google search for Osaifu-Keitai, but then Google would have your information and the CIA agents would be in your door minutes later. Hmmm, in this case do a Duck-Duck-Go search for Osaifu-Keitai and you will find lots of information.

The case for privacy is kind of a moot point. It takes a "special" level of paranoia to assume every one of your steps is being followed, specially on Chile. I assume there can be people from abroad that were following legal prosecution when they arrived to the country and no one really cares. A cryptographed wallet wouldn't need to be connected to your real name or address anyway, so that is a moot point.

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Re: Digital wallet possible in Chile

Postby HybridAmbassador » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:47 pm

NSA detects any international money flow both ways, they know how much and when you sent your money from the states to you by bank transfer or if someone brought the stash and handed to you directly. So by using the cryptocurrency via your phone to pay for things, perhaps much more secure than using your money out of a bank. Besides, I like the " no waiting " to sign every time you swipe your CC rendered by the merchant. The prelude of best things to come? IoT, B2C ,etc..
HybridAmbassador. Toyota Hybrid system for helping climate change.

mem
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Re: Digital wallet possible in Chile

Postby mem » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:50 pm

Well, "protecting wealth" is not my primary impetus for pro-cash/pro-privacy stance. As you mentioned in a previous post, the key is diversity/not having all the eggs in one basket for protecting wealth, but that isn't really what this thread is about

I can read between the lines, you seem to think, because I mentioned valuing privacy, that I must be paranoid at a "special" level.
Privacy is not a moot point in my opinion. Cash transaction are reasonably anonymous and in the original article at the beginning of this thread, it mentions "as part of the war on cash...." it is launching this initiative. Ouch.

I get it, you do not particularly value libertarian ideals of privacy and you are sarcastic/poke fun(cia agents blah) towards someone who is aware and conscious of the loss of personal freedom and privacy. It is a matter of principle and freedom and unfortunately it is becoming more rare as it is far more common now to just go with the flow, trust the system, parrot the party line and go along to get along like good sheeple.
Then there are people like the Oracle or Google CEO that believe that anyone who values privacy must be a criminal. We just can't get to 1984 fast enough can we? Lets just hit the throttle and pull out all the stops so we can get the whole world there as soon as possible.

I replied to this thread, because I was accused of "no reason rebellion" and a "troll post".
I hope at least it is clear now there was a reason and I was being serious even if we don't agree on what is or is not to be valued such as libertarian ideals

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tiagoabner
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Re: Digital wallet possible in Chile

Postby tiagoabner » Tue Sep 12, 2017 11:27 pm

I will assume all of your points are serious, for the sake of discussion. So let's discuss the matter in all seriousness.

While state control over the cash flow can be made easier by the use of digital wallets, the reverse isn't true. It is possible to use digital wallets and digital payment methods that don't make it easier for the state to control your cash flow. Indeed, they can make it harder, as long as the data is properly cryptographed using a public-private key SSL protocol, which can literally be done by any programmer that wants to do it.

The main point of these wallets is to make it easier to non-tech savvy users to make payments. Average Joe doesn't even know about the risks involved in his transactions, how does blockchain or swift work: he wants to swipe his card or phone and to pay. I am already able to make anonymous payments, so this makes difference only for those that don't have such knowledge.

The points related to privacy are how tight is the control of the state over payment methods and the intentions from the ones behind the payment methods and banks, which obviously no one can know. That is actually an advantage of cryptocurrencies as a privacy mechanism: it is virtually impossible for states to control them.

Now, I'm also libertarian and I defend the values of freedom and minimum state. However, I prefer to think of it in more practical terms, balancing the sacrifices I make in terms of personal privacy with what said sacrifices allow me to achieve. I need to have online portfolios (due to my online business) and to have some personal data online (to comply with Brazilian law, due to the fact I once had a company in Brazil and due to have worked for a government agency). However, when set on a scale, I think they are minor losses compared to the advantages I got from each one of them.

But everyone makes their own decisions. In my opinion, there is a balance between privacy and convenience, but that's what it is: my opinion regarding this matter.

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Re: Digital wallet possible in Chile

Postby mem » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:55 am

mem wrote:Not a fan of the smartphone wallet thing. Smartphones get lost, damaged, start not working, suddenly wont turn on one day...I'd prefer not to use it like a bank account. Maybe I am just a curmudgeon.


This is what I first replied with on this thread regarding this thread about digital wallet's in Chile. While what I said was true when I said it, it was under the assumption that the funds were literally on the phone, and so I highlighted the vulnerability of consumer grade phones. However, this is really the secondary concern and since the funds are not on the device itself, it is really a trade of consumer device vulnerability to third party counter-party risk and thirdparty observation/tracking of every transaction. But again, this is all secondary

If you read the first link posted that started this thread, and then read the link that the first link references in it's second paragraph. It becomes quite clear why they are pushing "digital mobile wallets". It is not to help people in any kind of philanthropic sense, that is just the candy coating BS they cook up for the marketing to sell/foist it on the sheeple marks. The truth is:

Excerpt from the first article. Second paragraph;

This announcement adds to a series of measures that have been taken several years ago by Federico Sturzenegger, now president of the BCRA, for his crusade against cash. Among them, the regulations that the BCRA approved a little more than a year ago were highlighted , among other measures, the use of the cell phone as a "mobile wallet".


Hmm..so this guy and the BCRA started out on a "crusade against cash" and one of their ideas for their Hegelian dialectic was "digital mobile wallets".

So why is this self-professed crusader against cash pimping cell phone wallets now?

Why is he crusading against the use of cash? What is his fear or dislike of cash based in?

Lets look at the linked article in that first paragraph quotes above:

Even before he knew that he could be president of the Central Bank, Federico Sturzenegger had already embarked on a crusade against the use of cash. In its eagerness to develop electronic means of payment, the Central Bank yesterday approved a rule that contemplates, among other things, the use of the cell phone as a "mobile wallet".


My primary reason for not liking this is that the primary reason for this is to kill/reduce physical use of cash. They want to make it harder and harder and harder to just be able to use cash. They want all transactions funneled through an electronic system that can be tracked, timestamped, and identified to a human being. They can't do that with good ole cash and it eats them up inside.

Is that what we want? It sure as heck is not what I want. I don't see any good reason for the common man/citizen/resident to support this totalitarian and dystopian "crusade on cash".

A largely cash transaction economy is one of the things I like about Chile. The longer we can keep cash flowing physically the longer we will prolong the total electronic lockdown and tracking of every single transaction and the fateful terrible day when cold hard cash is just illegal. But if we embrace these siren "conveniences" being foisted on us by those "crusading against cash" and then encourage other people to embrace these conveniences, then we are just helping the crusaders get to their goal of total surveillance/total control that much faster. If they can't reach critical mass, if they just can't get enough people doing it, at best they may eventually give up....at worst it will delay their implementation timeline of literally making physical cash illegal for all things in any quantity.

You know we almost, when we exited the USSA we almost moved to India, because we had contacts there, but instead we first tried out Uruguay, but after only a few weeks we came here and have now been here for years. When I saw the news about demonetization in India...literally ambushed on the people...phew I was thankful. When I heard about the draconian limits on cash transactions imposed in Uruguay...phew I was thankful.

So look, there are only a few places left on this planet that aren't trying to "crusade against cash" and actually let libertarians be libertarians and will for the most part leave people and families alone to live their lives, Chile is still one of these places.

Hopefully this explains my aversion to "Digital wallets possible in Chile"....when these things were cooked up for the sole reason of killing off cash. I'd prefer that mess stay in Argentina and other places that have already crapped all over themselves in terms of their country and banking system.

Chile is the last place left and I hope it never caves in to this "crusade on cash" propaganda. I will fight it tooth and nail and encourage others to do the same and I will sure as heck not barter convenience now for surveillance/dystopia later

Do you actually want to help them kill cash faster, in exchange for some convenience? Because that is exactly what the "crusaders against cash" want from you. Will you, as a libertarian, play into their wicked little game? Will you encourage others to do the same?

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tiagoabner
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Re: Digital wallet possible in Chile

Postby tiagoabner » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:21 am

That was an excellent example of nit picking: you made a very elaborate post while not addressing even a single one of my points.

I stand corrected, veteran forum residents. It was indeed a case of nit picking.

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Re: Digital wallet possible in Chile

Postby eeuunikkeiexpat » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:48 am

mem's rant was quite good though.
Generally, just a SPAM KILLER. You are on your own in this forum. My personal mission here is done.

BUT when necessary, by way of ridicule and truth revelation we shalt do war.

--eeuunikkeiexpat

mem
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Re: Digital wallet possible in Chile

Postby mem » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:20 am

tiagoabner wrote:That was an excellent example of nit picking: you made a very elaborate post while not addressing even a single one of my points.


Your points were all around actual crypto currency, not about these digital fiat mobile wallets. So got it back on track by going back to the articles that originated this thread....digital fiat mobile wallets.

tiagoabner wrote:I will assume all of your points are serious, for the sake of discussion. So let's discuss the matter in all seriousness.

While state control over the cash flow can be made easier by the use of digital wallets, the reverse isn't true. It is possible to use digital wallets and digital payment methods that don't make it easier for the state to control your cash flow. Indeed, they can make it harder, as long as the data is properly cryptographed using a public-private key SSL protocol, which can literally be done by any programmer that wants to do it.


Ugh, you seem to be conflating proper libertarian crypto currency with what this thread is actually about....this thread originated on fiat based digital mobile wallets pushed by Argentine central banks and then the specualtion that maybe it is coming to Chile. You seem to be mentioning actual Bitcoin wallets where the Bitcoin or Crypto is actually intrinsically tied to the wallet itself (perhaps just a paper wallet in bitcoin/ethereum case). This is apples an oranges.

tiagoabner wrote:The main point of these wallets is to make it easier to non-tech savvy users to make payments. Average Joe doesn't even know about the risks involved in his transactions, how does blockchain or swift work: he wants to swipe his card or phone and to pay. I am already able to make anonymous payments, so this makes difference only for those that don't have such knowledge.


If by "these wallets" you mean the fiat digital mobile wallets referenced in the first post in this thread that Argentina's crusaders against cash are pimping....then that is ridiculous. The "main point" of those things is to reduce and eventually kill cash, while they song and dance to the sheeple that they are really just doing it "to help". The articles don't even try to hide it that the entire genesis of it is to kill cash.
If you are talking about actual crypto currency wallets, it is again not what this thread and the originating articles are about. crypto currency wallets can just as easily be paper as they can be electronic. Not the same case with this digital fiat mobile wallet abominations

tiagoabner wrote:The points related to privacy are how tight is the control of the state over payment methods and the intentions from the ones behind the payment methods and banks, which obviously no one can know. That is actually an advantage of cryptocurrencies as a privacy mechanism: it is virtually impossible for states to control them.


Again, you are talking about cryptocurrency that is decentralized and perhaps anonymous such as the case of Monero or Dash. Not digital fiat mobile wallets being pimped by state central banks under a false pretext of "helping the unbanked". Gag me with a spoon if you believe that crap

tiagoabner wrote:Now, I'm also libertarian and I defend the values of freedom and minimum state. However, I prefer to think of it in more practical terms, balancing the sacrifices I make in terms of personal privacy with what said sacrifices allow me to achieve. I need to have online portfolios (due to my online business) and to have some personal data online (to comply with Brazilian law, due to the fact I once had a company in Brazil and due to have worked for a government agency). However, when set on a scale, I think they are minor losses compared to the advantages I got from each one of them.

But everyone makes their own decisions. In my opinion, there is a balance between privacy and convenience, but that's what it is: my opinion regarding this matter.



So for that whole last post...You just extolled the benefits of actual true libertarian crypto currency wallets, but didn't address anything about what this thread was started about, digital fiat mobile wallets pimped by cash hating state central banks.

The articles that originated this thread having NOTHING to do with proper decentralized crypto currency wallets. Decentralized crypto was created largely as a remedy against fiat and government control.

However, these government/central bank inspired digital fiat mobile wallets are entirely different....they were created to overcome a lack of government control and visibility over physical cash with one primary directive...TO REDUCE and KILL the usage of cash

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tiagoabner
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Re: Digital wallet possible in Chile

Postby tiagoabner » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:33 pm

The fact that the original post discussed a specific digital wallet doesn't invalidate my discussion about what could be a valid digital wallet in a model that makes it economically viable without sacrificing privacy.

If you want to run in circles around the original article as if I didn't want to explore the ramifications thereof and all other arguments present at the thread, including the other ramifications and arguments discussed about the topic, then you're actually not interested in discussing at all. You are interested in giving a speech and making your point by sheer repetition, without addressing the points that are being discussed in the topic.

It makes me very sad that there is a person in the forum that needs this kind of validation, actually, as I really though about this as a place where ideas could be discussed with arguments geared towards improving things. Feel free to continue to repeat the same argument ad eternum, ignoring all other developments.


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