Solar Photovoltaic Panels

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Britkid
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Re: Solar Photovoltaic Panels

Postby Britkid » Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:48 am

FrankPintor wrote:I understand that normal practice by firemen is to disconnect a house from the grid in case of a fire before going in. With a solar powered house that's not possible and I believe that a standard practice is emerging where the house on fire will be left to burn and efforts will be focused on neighbouring properties.



This is a standard practice where, in Chile, US, worldwide?

What are you basing this policy on, you know, do you have articles that point to this, have you seen it happening, something a fireman told you etc....I am a bit skeptical about this policy.

Although it is an interesting point to consider, I agree with that.

I would assume a good solar system would have an easy way to disconnect, although probably from inside the house, or on its exterior, which might be less helpful in a fire, especially to a fireman.
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Re: Solar Photovoltaic Panels

Postby Space Cat » Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:19 am

MJSaywell wrote:How about pellet stoves or pellet fires anyone had any experience with them ?

Yes, we installed one this year. A great device: much cleaner than wood and could be programmed to start and stop at required time and days, so we're waking up in a warm house in the winter.

We have Camilla, it's enough for a small house and it works almost 24/7 in July, consuming about 2 bags (18-20kg each) of pellets in 3 days ($3500-4000 for a bag) to keep indoor temperature at 22-23ºC.

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fraggle092
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Re: Solar Photovoltaic Panels

Postby fraggle092 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:31 pm

Britkid wrote:What are you basing this policy on, you know, do you have articles that point to this, have you seen it happening, something a fireman told you etc....I am a bit skeptical about this policy.

Well you may be skeptical, but the US electrical code certainly isn't.
The point of rapid-disconnect, of course, is to make the area near the array less risky for first responders.

How The New NEC Codes Will Affect Your Installations

EngineeringDevInsert11.jpg
EngineeringDevInsert11.jpg (79.07 KiB) Viewed 1691 times

Courtesy of PV expert Bill Brooks, here’s how a utility-interactive PV system with no battery storage might be equipped with a rapid-disconnect facility that meets NEC 690.12 requirements. In this example, the PV array sits on the roof. Its inverter is in the garage. Wiring between the roof installation and the inverter runs in metal conduit, through the attic and into the garage. Inside the attic resides a remotely activated switch within 5 ft of where the conduit enters. (The remotely activated disconnect could also sit outside the attic, closer to the array, if that is more practical.) Another shutdown switch must sit within 5 ft of the inverter, unless the inverter itself can internally reduce its voltage below 30V or isolate its capacitors within ten seconds. In the diagram, the dc switch at the inverter is shown as being remotely operated.


A panel array disconnect switch is a must:

https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... refighters
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Re: Solar Photovoltaic Panels

Postby Britkid » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:26 pm

When I say I am skeptical I mean I am skeptical that fireman will leave houses to burn because they have solar panels. Perhaps I can ask a fireman when I see one.
In 2014/2015 I blogged abount my life in Chile. http://web.archive.org/web/201601121940 ... age_id=268
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fraggle092
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Re: Solar Photovoltaic Panels

Postby fraggle092 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:55 pm

I think you will find that property preservation is not the main priority for firemen.

Since you are a Brit, next time you go back there, look on the front wall of an older commercial or industrial building.
You may see a small red box, usually located quite high up. That is the isolator that was used to kill the power to rooftop and other neon signs in the event of fire, for the same reason - to protect the firefighters.

fireman switch.jpg
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Nothing new under the sun.
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papageno
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Re: Solar Photovoltaic Panels

Postby papageno » Fri Nov 04, 2016 4:10 pm

Space Cat wrote:
MJSaywell wrote:How about pellet stoves or pellet fires anyone had any experience with them ?

Yes, we installed one this year. A great device: much cleaner than wood and could be programmed to start and stop at required time and days, so we're waking up in a warm house in the winter.

We have Camilla, it's enough for a small house and it works almost 24/7 in July, consuming about 2 bags (18-20kg each) of pellets in 3 days ($3500-4000 for a bag) to keep indoor temperature at 22-23ºC.


At today"s conversion rate, that works out to about $120-125 US. More or less what I spend for electricity in L.A. in high summer.

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Re: Solar Photovoltaic Panels

Postby HybridAmbassador » Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:37 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
HybridAmbassador wrote: The Prius salvaged NiMet battery can yield as much as 1.7KW of useful juice obtained by the solar panels, if me importing the already pre-fabbed 85 sq meters home, then will link perhaps a pair of Prius nickel metal hybrid car's discarded battery and have total of 3.4 KW of ready to use electric power at your wish.


Sorry, but saying "as much as 1.7 kW of useful juice" means nothing unless you state for how long the useful juice lasts.

Power = Energy/Time
Electrical Power is generally measured in kilowatt-hours (kWh)
Electricity utility bills are priced in kWh because you pay for power consumed over a certain time period.

Put simply:

A battery may supply 10 kW of energy for 6 minutes before dying.
Its capacity would be 1 kWh

Another battery may supply 1kW of energy for 10 hours before dying.
Its capacity would be 10 kWh


Sorry, but saying "as much as 1.7 kW of useful juice" means nothing unless you state for how long the useful juice lasts.


Eternally, if continuous flowing from wired already solar panels. Any given amount of juice eventually runs out from lead-acid or NiMet or Lithium, be there running for 10 minutes or an hour.
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fraggle092
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Re: Solar Photovoltaic Panels

Postby fraggle092 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:22 pm

HybridAmbassador wrote: Eternally, if continuous flowing from wired already solar panels. Any given amount of juice eventually runs out from lead-acid or NiMet or Lithium, be there running for 10 minutes or an hour.


What happens at night when no juice from panels?
I take it you have done some power budget calculations, be interesting to see them.
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fraggle092
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Re: Solar Photovoltaic Panels

Postby fraggle092 » Fri Nov 04, 2016 9:17 pm

HybridAmbassador" The Prius salvaged NiMet battery can yield as much as 1.7KW of useful juice obtained by the solar panels,


OK, I took a look at the Prius00 battery spec: 273.6 volts at 6.5 Ah for a total of 1.775 kWh.

Thats a pretty small battery for a solar installation. To put it into perspective, it would keep one 100W light bulb burning for 17 hours, and that's with a brand new battery, assuming 100% system conversion efficiency to keep the calculation simple.
And if it gets as deeply discharged as that, it will not last long. Limiting its discharge to 50% of capacity, which is what Toyota does, gives it an effective capacity of .85 kWh.

Also it outputs 273 volts! How do you interface that? Most PV systems run on 12, 24, or 48 volts.
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Re: Solar Photovoltaic Panels

Postby Britkid » Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:50 pm

As far as I know, solar panels themselves don't store any energy so for night time use you need batteries associated with the panels for that, so a solar panel on its own would be fairly useless.
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Re: Solar Photovoltaic Panels

Postby HybridAmbassador » Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:32 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
HybridAmbassador" The Prius salvaged NiMet battery can yield as much as 1.7KW of useful juice obtained by the solar panels,


OK, I took a look at the Prius00 battery spec: 273.6 volts at 6.5 Ah for a total of 1.775 kWh.

Thats a pretty small battery for a solar installation. To put it into perspective, it would keep one 100W light bulb burning for 17 hours, and that's with a brand new battery, assuming 100% system conversion efficiency to keep the calculation simple.
And if it gets as deeply discharged as that, it will not last long. Limiting its discharge to 50% of capacity, which is what Toyota does, gives it an effective capacity of .85 kWh.

Also it outputs 273 volts! How do you interface that? Most PV systems run on 12, 24, or 48 volts.


OK, I took a look at the Prius 00 battery spec: 273.6 volts at 6.5 Ah for a total of 1.775 kWh.


At $1200 a piece, you can buy 4 re-manufactured Nimet Hydrate 2004~2010 Prius battery. It is cheaper than the Tesla home battery price of "one" And the 2000 model battery can not be found, try the 2004 and up.

Toyota Prius Battery Specs

Specifications 97 Prius 00 Prius 04 Prius 06 HH & RX400h
Form Factor Cylindrical Prismatic Prismatic M Prismatic
Cells (Modules) 240 (40) 228 (38) 168 (28) 240 (30) 8cell/mod
Nominal Voltage 288.0 V 273.6 V 201.6 V 288.0 V
Nominal Capacity 6.0Ah 6.5Ah 6.5Ah 6.5Ah
Pack Weight 68 kg
Specific Power 800 W/kg 1000 W/kg 1300 W/kg 1192W/kg
Specific Energy 40 Wh/kg 46 Wh/kg 46 Wh/kg 41Wh/kg
Module Weight 1090 g 1050 g 1040 g 1510g
Module Dimensions 35(oc)x384(L) 19.6x106x275 19.6x106x285 18.4x96x382

http://www.aprs.org/FD-Prius-Power.html
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Re: Solar Photovoltaic Panels

Postby HybridAmbassador » Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:43 pm

fraggle092 wrote:
HybridAmbassador wrote: Eternally, if continuous flowing from wired already solar panels. Any given amount of juice eventually runs out from lead-acid or NiMet or Lithium, be there running for 10 minutes or an hour.


What happens at night when no juice from panels?
I take it you have done some power budget calculations, be interesting to see them.


If no continuous juice flowing from solar panels at night. You would need a bank of many NiMet or even the powerful Lithium batteries. Wouldn't you think? It is nicer if your car runs after juice from gassupplied engine stops? Even after gas supply is none, On a side note: The Prius at least can limp and powers its 3500 lbs mass of steel for 4~5 miles on its battery power?
I put in from bone dry to fill it to the brim only taking 10.9 US gallons then it gives me 440 guaranteed (proven) miles..
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