Chile Forum

Sorry for the delay responding, I was at... a shooting match, really!
Here's the sort of stuff we do and that which IPSC Chile also gets up to

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k90hyoa0 ... ed&search=

Now, back to the subject.
From Magnyz:
MikieO ...

What I read when I read your stement is this (I hope I am exaggerating!) ... I do not care about the society I live in as long as I am ok. Me is the most important thing and to hell with the rest. I do not care if my behaviour and my wishes creates a society which is dangerous for those who does not arm themselves. As long as I can get a gun I don't care if in the process of having that right it becomes easy for other people with bad intentions to get guns too.
Back to the stone age

I posted it again so that you would read it again.

In response, Yes, I care about the society I live in ...but not to the extent that I or my family should have to submit to attack by armed (or unarmed) individuals. Your portrayal of my position as a 'screw you, I'm OK" is mistaken but typical of Europeans, who in particular, have developed a tendency through media and skool (sic) input to self hate.
I had an animated discussion recently with an English lady who declared that she would rather allow herself to be shot than defend herself with a gun! (The suicide of Europe is another topic)
My only reason in posting these points is to illustrate the differences in opinion that will NEVER be resolved.
In owning many weapons over the past 25 yrs, I've yet to shoot anyone but having said that have been in two situations (in Los Angeles) where the mere presence of a weapon prevented a situation from escalating. All my guns are kept in a safe except one 12 Ga that's available while I'm at home.
The "new world" you envision would have us all on the top of a hill in Italy drinking Coke and singing like the old ad (link)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mOEU87S ... ed&search=

the world ain't so.

I plan to apply to these guys http://www.ipscchile.org/default.html for membership when I move to Valpo, I plan to compete using club equipment at first.
After the appropriate time frame, I would like to think I might import a few weapons of my own, failing that, I can afford "the good stuff" and plan to own some along with a good safe. I am trained and hold an NRA instructor's cert.
It's illegal to carry concealed or exposed in Chile, I can live with that. You shouldn't have a problem with me doing anything else inside the law, right?

Someone get the fire extinguisher, and I'll get a bucket of water, because there is a flame war coming.

Seriously though when I say there is a time and place for a gun, I mean I don't think the overall security situation in Chile requires a gun. Perhaps owning gun because you enjoy shooting guns is one thing, or you like to hunt, but as a necessity of life they are really not needed.

On the other hand, in Las Vegas a gun is required. My father is old school Marine core from WWII and Korea, and absolutely hates guns. He is likely one of the more anti-gun people I have ever met, very left wing democrat, and you would never catch him joining the NRA.

That said, he has a concealed weapons permit and a .38 . He feels his life is sufficiently threatened by the day to day security situation in the U.S. to need a gun. He is in his 80's, not as fast as he once was, and lives alone.

And in defense of our European friends, they may be a little slow to get out their guns, but they really get them out when they do (bosinia, wwii, wwi, and so on).

Perhaps, better for all concerned that the Europeans don't jump in to wars as fast as the U.S. From what I have seen, there are still far more guns roaming the streets of Europe than Chile. The Eastern part of Europe most definitely has more than its fair share of guns.

There are way more guns in Europe than many people realize. Lots of guns from Eastern Europe have leaked into Western Europe a decade ago too, so you can bet that criminals have war weapons at this point.

I'll refrain from fueling a flame war, but let's just say that all Europeans don't buy into the socialist mantra that only State agents and criminals should own guns, see, for your own safety (the bad guys get armed *because* the good guys have weapons, now that's really rich - I guess you should blame pretty girls for rapes too).

Anyway, as another poster said, from where I stand it's my natural right to defend my property and family. This is a matter of political philosophy. Now is Chile safe enough that in practice it's not necessary to own a gun to be safe? This is a different question altogether. I have very strong feelings in favor of the first position in principle, in practice we chose to move to Chile among other things because it's safe relative to its neighbors and even many richer countries.

OK Charles, I too can see where this might go so I'll just shut up. Here in the US there's a constant push to curtail/re-interpret the 2nd amendmant so it's possible that a gun owner has a "knee jerk reaction" in the same way a liberal dioes, whatever.
I heard last night that my 84 yr old neighbour in El Tabo was having a siesta while her husband was at a neighbours' place. Someone came in and stole their wallets and mobile phones! I see your point about having a big dog too.

Hmm, I was planning not to continue posting in this thread but guess I have to and I will try to bite my tongue the best I can.

>...socialist mantra...

Wrong, it is not a socialist mantra and I am not a socialist. Probably the mantra "everybody have the right to have a gun" is more of a southern US (redneck?) mantra. It is too bad that NRA have such a disproportionate influence on American politics through their heavy duty lobbyists. I lived for some years in California and didn't find too many who were pro guns or pro NRA ... admittedly my circles was mostly in academia so I cannot generalize. BTW, Europe is not a very homogenous place either.

>the bad guys get armed *because* the good guys have weapons,
>now that's really rich -
>I guess you should blame pretty girls for rapes too

You said you will refrain from fueling a flame war and you say something stupid like that!! My point was (which probably most others here understand) that the desire by both sides of the fence to get armed probably creates a vicious circle. What is the next step in some parts of the US? Have a bazooka on the porch? In Chile I don't think we have started a vicious circle but the more people who subscribe to the opinion that "everybody should have a gun in the house" the more violent deaths there will be (both intentional and by mistake). Seems to me that the vicious circle is spinning fast in the US ... even making the wrong turn in the wrong neighborhood could mean death with a high probability. If I lived in one of those lost neighborhoods in the US I would own a gun too but, for sure, in Chile there is just no point and in my opinion these gung-ho gun-ideas is better off staying in the US.

And regarding the statement above about "self-hate" ... I cannot find the right words to contradict such "brilliant" analysis!!

>Someone came in and stole their wallets and mobile phones
I guess that someone would probably be dead in some parts of the US and many would say "right on, he had it coming"!!??

Sorry Charles, I apologize for not throwing water on this issue.

Wow Mag, you got me in one. A true academic.

Doing my best ...

According to the Wikipedia topic Gun Violence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_violence

"Levels of gun violence are low in Singapore, Chile, New Zealand, and many other countries."

Source: The Seventh United Nations Survey on Crime Trends and the Operations of Criminal Justice Systems (1998 - 2000). United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime (UNODC). Retrieved on 2006-11-08.

"The United States has the highest rates among developed countries, often accounted to the loose firearm laws in the U.S. compared to other developed countries."

Source: Cook, Philip J., Gun Violence: The Real Cost, Page 29. Oxford University Press, 2002

I doubt that if any of you were wittness to or a victim of gun voilence that you could in any way agree with the present gun laws of the US.
The document that gives you the "right to bear arms" has been judged a "living document" and as such needs to reflect the times we live in. Perhaps we could trade the right to bear arms for say one of the more important rights which have been denied us as of late.I remember as a kid in Ireland growing up in The troubles. Late nights been woken up by the sound of gun report after gun report in the vacated mines behind our house. A peroid of thirty odd years saw the loss of some 3000 odd souls on both sides of the issue, a terrible time to be sure. Since then I have moved on to Chicago and except for a year down under I have remained there for onwards of 22 years. In that time upwards of 13000 souls have perished here.School kids alone have numbered 20-30 in the last year .Keep in mind that the population of Ireland and Chicago are similar.
I grew up on a farm and had acess to shotguns of various descriptions from a young age and know a thing or two about killing rabbits.However people are not rabbits.Indeed they (guns) may be a usefull tool on a farm but the need for an AK 47 for deer hunting escapes me.
As I have said before gun ownership rights should be traded for some of the more important issues which we have been denied.Like a drivers licence it could perhaps be a privilage not a right.
In conclusion the issue seems to be very devisive and there are no right or wrong answers here.I do feel however that we should enjoy the Chillean attitude with respect to guns and adabt it as our own if we intend to make Chile our homes.
I am sorry for contributing to the thread hijack but I think this is important to me as I have witnessed enough of the consiquences of gun laws for a few lifetimes.
Rant over..........

Promise, last comment on this subject as I think there are people who don't want to hear these opinions.

Honestly, do what you like in the States. Maybe you are safer there with a loaded gun in your house. I don't have the desire to argue that for the purposes of this forum.

But please be open minded enough to understand that not every country shares that mentality or social environment, and that bringing *that attitude* to Chile is not needed. It could in fact mean bringing your problems with you.

If it makes you feel unprotected and nervous to change your ways, then stay where you are, thus avoiding the need to adapt.

Mwa.

I think alot of these differences started when the guys in the old world went to the new world to start a new gig....I mean really the euros have thier thing going on and they're good with it...I mean really, the french can scream at US policy abroad, both govt/military and what the US does to install and protect us markets...they can scream green and demand peace and justice from the streets and from powerful balconies and over the redline to the white house ....but then they build nuclear reactors and underground facilites for 3rd worlders that can get enough suitcases of money to pay for it...the week the US military went into iraq in MArch of 03 the french government sent 2800 troops to the Congo to protect, evacuate and otherwise aid the French living and working there...so spare the crap that any one country is above any other one in what they are capable of...the US or Brazil or France or Thailand...its just that some have better guarantees for thier citizens is all....its what is so attractive about CHile isn't it?...a better guarantee than say Colombia or Mexico.

The Belgians and Swiss have designed some of the finest automatic weapons on the planet and made a business of supplying everyone that would't or couldn't buy the M-16 or the AK-47....the czechs make some of the best and cheapest bullets around (okay not that good but very cheap) I wonder if the governments in Africa that buy thier weapons get concerned when an entire village is raped and the men shot ...its the business end of a Belgian FAL or a Hoekler-Koch from Switzerland....oh and there are the M-16s and the Aks that do thier damage as well...

THen there is england where the cops are not armed and they seem to do okay...and then there is Israel where everyone is in the military and they all have thier service weapons at the reach whether on duty or not...I don't know what the crime rate in Israel is but I think its like it is everywhere else and not skyrocketing because everyone is armed (I think the swiss have all the reserve military armed in thier homes as well)

I don't think that every country has a uniform crime report (compiled by the FBI)that is put out every year like we do in the USA...I don't think that CHile has only 200 homicides a year nationwide...I would want to see who and how the info was compiled...my guess would be that the per captia violent death rate is somewhat similar to that of the rest of the world.

My nieghbor got in a fight with the nieghbor accross the road and the guy fromm accross the road pulled a pair of stell tipped boots from the barn wall and crushed in his eye socket...he lived but lost his eye...a man in las laurles last year became upset when his wife shared his impotence issues with the nieghbor and he came home and killed her with an ax..in las hortensias a son burned his father alive after tying him to the bed in a effort to get his father to hand over his retirement check...in the outskirts of Nueva Imperial a mapuche women stabbed her son with a pitchfork in the throat, killing him, because she found out he was milking the cow in the evening and selling the milk on the side....two woodcutters attacked each other in the lago ranco area after arguing about whose turn it was to walk to town to buy bread. THey went at it with a chainsaw and an ax...guess who won?

Has anyone here really seen the face of CHilean crime?...I have on a few ocasions but nothing really serious. It would be hard for me to say exactly how vicious it can get but my experience tells me that it gets bad quickly and the criminals are good at what they do...for the carreer criminal in CHile I think desperation is the main course and we all know that desperate men do desperate things.

My point is that its all messed up everywhere and its not a bad idea to have some protection. I would guess that if in the town where Mikieo is at, that if they had a gun, everyone would now it and the thieves would have not risked it and gone to an easier spot. Personaly I would not shoot anyone over a wallet, watch, radio or other trivial item...really the only thing important to me is the personal safety of myself and my family and not until that is threatend would I worry about what authorities call "deadly force".

Remember that it is in the US constitution that the right to bear arms is written...I don't really know whats in the Chilean Constitution or the French or the German...after all we are talking about CHILE and not the US or Europe...really you can only expect to have whatever is legaly allowed and available...its a good idea in CHile to have a weapon if you are legaly able to do so.

Every country has legal, social and cultural parameters that are designed around thier way of life...they are of that country and so the citizens dictate what will be allowed and tolerated. It seems that the new world started with the opportunity to start something new and those that were dis-satisfied or wanted to take advantage left and started something new...fundamently the old and new are different and so it doesn't surprise me that there is conflict on gun control issues...its just change and its different...

I have personaly seen social unrest in Argentina, Chile, Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador and Mexico...apart from a criminal assault on your home it would not be a bad idea to have a firearm to keep the anarchy in the street and not in your home when it happens (this is a matter of when not if) its all cyclical and it spares no one, yea things are calm now but you never know and if you never need it than great. Wasn't it the famous Capn' Jack Sparrow that said "...after all it comes down to two things, what a man can do and what he can't..." ...fairly level comment for a movie charactor.


p out

I wonder what kind of a shit storm this will brew up.....
.

The fires are a burning. I guess I am not exactly helping to put it out either. We are still fairly on topic however, and relatively civil still.

Even the police in Chile rarely use their guns, and on some level they are paid to use them.

Nueva Imperial a mapuche women stabbed her son with a pitchfork in the throat,

By the way, if your mother is intent on stabbing you with a pitchfork, you really are not going to see it coming. No gun is going to help you.

Sorry, could not resist the comment.

let me add...i posted whilst some other posts came in and I was not able to read them before my post...

Murf, i think that what you are talking about in Ireland was a political reality...maybe if you are Irish and in the middle of it than it seems criminal looking over the fence to what the opposition is up to but I think there is a big difference in the mechanics of what takes place..I am not Irish nor have I been there but that is my opinion based on what I have viewed over the years...

I think if anyone is bent on owning firearms in Chile to protect them from a political situation then it would be better to buy a canoe and paddle your way out....


my main reason for posting again is the following...

Chileans love to talk, converse, chat, discuss and provoke...its national culture and could take place on the street corner in a newspaper editorial or an afternoon tartulia at the club...some have apolojized for the rant or discussing something of an opinion here on the forum...I think as long as we are civil..or maybe civil with an edge..then whats the big issue with going over this and that and posting it...if you are gooing to live in CHile than you better get used to hearing comments about whatever country you are from and thier comportamiento internationaly...everytime I go I hear ...I am racist, I am a baby killer, I am a philanthropist, I am a giver or whatever...the biggest crime is not having aanything to sa in response..it comfirms the general Chilean opinion that americans are heartless, mind numbed idiots....this true of course but it doesn't help my individual case in CHile for whatever I am up to...so post away people, I think a sharp is okay but we are adults so why not lay it out a little...after all we might all learn something about CHile in the end...

Just one mans' opinion,


P out.


Carlos...you should know that its not so easy to pierce the cold, hard heart of el puelche....

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el puelche wrote:
Murf, i think that what you are talking about in Ireland was a political reality..

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No, let me clarify. I was trying to make the point that there is alot more voilence & murder in Chicago than in Ireland and that, in time peroid where Ireland was going thru a war of sorts.
I will tell a short but true story about the rabbits.Back in the '70s we experienced a minny plague of rabbits on the farm.We had spread organic fertalizer on one half of a field and 10-10-20 bagged manure on the other half. Apparently the bagged manure yielded a much sweeter grass than the organic.The rabbits ate all the bag fertalized grass so we decided to do something about it and I started to spend days in the fields with a shotgun.I noticed however that when the gun was discharged the rabbits all went to ground and I had to wait a half hour for them to come out to get another shot. Each day yielded 10-15 rabbits and the eradication at this rate would take years so we decided to purchase a 22 rifel (the report from a rifel being not as loud as a shotgun). The process in obtaining the rifel permit included showing a need and then and only then did we get the permit.(too bad for furrey).
Now I tell this and compare it to a deer hunting trip that I took to Kentucky where I purchased over the counter a hig powered rifel at WallMart with just a driver licence.A happy medium is what I want when it comes to who can or can not have a firearm.