Chile Forum

Just a couple pointers for people who might not yet be familiar with the "middle income trap" framework, which I've come to believe is very relevant to today's Chile:
- http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2012/0 ... -protests/
- http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2012/0 ... c-success/
- http://www.americasquarterly.org/node/2142

As I've posted in a couple different threads, I believe that until we see significant productivity increases in daily real-world activities in this country - insane notary paperwork, sluggish retail interactions, waiting in line in banks that close at 2pm... - Chile will remain stuck pretty much where it is now in its second world status with pockets of wealth in a sea of poverty and ignorance. When Sodimac starts selling something else than self-destructing tools from China, when Cencosud gets a clue on specialty ecommerce, when people start thinking holistically and beyond tomorrow... Until then, I'm betting on Chile staying stuck at middle income levels.

People like Larrain think that "development" is a macro measurement that can be boiled down to GDP/capita. I contend that this is very mistaken and doesn't recognize quality of life and real purchasing power that most people have in real developed countries (which, by the way does *not* start at Portugal's level, but significantly above). Until Chile gets the First World basics of service productivity right, I don't buy the "path to developed country" pitch. High copper exports and booming domestic retail sales alone won't translate into a developed country.

I just had a huge squabble with "someone" this morning about this. He claimed that chilenos are afraid to purchase online. I told them they had reason to be paranoid. Purchasing anything in Chile requires two basics that are at least 20 years behind the USA: Customer service and competition. Since those 2 concepts are not part of the personal shopping experience here they have no reason to hope for any better online.

I wholeheartedly concur. On a personal level, I find the little annoyances and setbacks so prevalent here in day to day life as very dissuasive to either trying to be innovative or even going above and beyond the absolute bare minimum. I think the whole experience of either a) renting an apartment or b) attempting to get a cuenta corriente (especially as a youngun and recent graduate) really are microcosms of what is inherently wrong in the system. Roadblocks upon roadblocks which are by large unnecessary. I asked an educated well-traveled Chilean friend of mine about how the large underclass gets out of poverty, to which she replied "they really don't." Qué lastima.

momof3 wrote:I just had a huge squabble with "someone" this morning about this. He claimed that chilenos are afraid to purchase online. I told them they had reason to be paranoid. Purchasing anything in Chile requires two basics that are at least 20 years behind the USA: Customer service and competition. Since those 2 concepts are not part of the personal shopping experience here they have no reason to hope for any better online.

Online purchases also require fulfillment -- reliable, timely, and convenient delivery of the goods. Based on the posts I've read on these forums, it seems Chile is sorely lacking in that area of commerce.

Roadblock or opportunity?

Shopping online also requires one of two things: trust or timely delivery

If you can't have timely delivery, you have to trust that if they leave a box on your porch, it won't be stolen.

If you don't have trust, you have to have some reasonable delivery time frame. Sometime during the day on Thursday or Friday is not a reasonable delivery frame. Sometime between 1PM and 4PM is quite reasonable, if it's actually honored.

So true all of you, especially op, just had a discussion with my wife about this yesterday. What is it about half arse efforts and promising but never delivering in Chile, (this has just been my experience with contractors I have come accross, there are some that do go the extra mile but they are few and far between) do people really hate their jobs that much that they just cant be bothered or what? There seems to be a lot of jelousy amongst workers of bosses or people who have made something of themselves, is this why they think it is their god given right to take as much as they can from their boss including stealing their time by wasting so much of it. Theft, apathy, and envy are rife amongst a lot of chilean contractors I have come accross, it cant surely just be me that thinks this? Until there is a massive culture shift, the vast majority of chileans are going to have to live pay check to pay check and borrow an emergency $50000 on the 25th of the month from a credit lender charging 50% interest so they can buy their junk at sodimac or cheap clothing at one of the multitide of department stores. One last thing, what the hell is with cheques here, they are phasing them out in other countries I can not believe how many people use and ask for them still.

And Chile has thrown away another opportunity to advance as we are near the tail end of a once every 30 or so year secular commodity boom (2000ish through now and probably 2015).

What happens when the reserve rainy day fund disappears over the future years after the final commodity price spike in 2014-2015?

I visited Chile for the first time this summer (chile winter). As someone who has travelled widely, has 47 years on the planet and pays attention, i'd like to offer my observations. First, the class structure is alive and well in Chile. Non-americans often criticize americans for a lack of class consciousness. This is true, but it's simply true that in the US class differences are far less apparent on a day-to-day basis. One reason people all over the world 'liked' americans is that when they met them they actually treated them as equals instead of inferiors. This cannot be said of the upper classes in any other country in the world, where the elite is always keenly aware that the lower classes know their place.The oppressiveness of the american imperialistic corporate/government class has overcome these positive feelings over the last several decades, but that's another story. In Chile, there is first rate service, transportation, law, arts and culture, government, technology, jobs, healthcare, and recreation for the elite; then there is what everybody else gets. Until quite recently, in the US the vast majority of people had equal access to excellence in all these areas, unlike most places. As the upper class (an increasingly small group) has become increasingly cut-off from real life here, i've seen attitudes evolve that before you had to go overseas for (or this forum)..."Oh this generation! They're just so lazy, and don't know what service is! All they do is waste the bosses money, waste my time,...and they're so incompetent. The terrible education system that i have to pour my money into is useless! And don't get me started on the government- they just steal my money and re-distribute it to lay-abouts!" Screw you jerk. If you paid your workers a living wage (or better) you might have a reason to complain. Til then- Shut Up! And remember it is the elites that have taken away any stake in the environment, the government, the workplace, and health that working people had; Still, they just can't figure out how to wake the low-brow from their apathetic stupor! Give back what you've been slowly stealing over the last few centuries, and then we'll talk...
It's hilarious that this thread is called the 'middle income trap'. Elites in developed countries always call those who can just barely get by (pay for their food, clothing, shelter, and other necessaries) 'middle income'. [end part I]

mimbreno, this thread is about the state and future of development in Chile, not class warfare in the US. If you want to post mostly about the latter, then please do so elsewhere. More specifically, the topic is "the middle income trap", a phrase with a specific meaning that has been increasingly used and discussed in recent months in economic circles, as per the links in my initial post, as well as (among others):
- http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicd ... 03/focus-3
- http://en.mercopress.com/2012/05/17/wor ... ncome-trap

There's nothing hilarious about it and I find it a useful way to reflect on a country like Chile, beyond its idiosyncrasies.

The Lobby is the most loose subforum on this site, nonetheless please try not to start your presence here with thread hijacks. Yes, classism plays a part in Chile's conundrum, but this has already been discussed at length elsewhere. What I wanted to discuss here are sustainable growth drivers (beyond commodities) and real-world tell-tale signs that an emerging country is on a credible path to "make it" to fully developed status.

...As far as what i saw in Chile...
I found chilenos to be very polite but perhaps a tad too reserved and cold at first. However, as my trip continued and i engaged them in more meaningful discussion (beyond the business at hand) they almost instantly became as warm and a helpful people as you'll meet most anywhere else. I realized that as a foreigner (especially an american foreigner) i was automatically percieved as rich/out-of-their-class so I got the combination morose/conniving treatment that the imperialist deserves/earns! But when i reached out to them as an equal their whole outlook changed. It was their cultural/class training that told them they could not relate to me, or i to them. Maybe some of you who post on this forum might learn to stop seeing those around you as more than just a servant there to provide you a service. "Oh, but that's what they're paid for!" B^!! S%!&! Do you really think the lowly employee/gov. servant gives a shit about pleasing master, when master won't even give him a self-respecting wage. WAKE UP!
I'm reminded of one thread related to starting businesses in Chile i saw on this forum. All but one guy could only whine and complain about the quality of the worker in Chile. He said he was making millions AND had little problems with his workers as he paid them well and invested in them! I imagine He was completely at a loss to explain the dimness of the other posters who'd rather dismiss the misery of their ungrateful slaves, while sipping cabernet in Barlioche and watching the stock ticker on their iphone than actually take any responsibility for their presence on this planet! [end part II]

Otravers...sorry if if you think i hijacked the thread. I thought you had raised a substantial topic, and as a substantial topic it deserves a little development, but as you are apparently the plantation owner here, i'll try to make the point more succinctly:

here's nothing hilarious about it and I find it a useful way to reflect on a country like Chile, beyond its idiosyncrasies.

The Lobby is the most loose subforum on this site, nonetheless please try not to start your presence here with thread hijacks. Yes, classism plays a part in Chile's conundrum, but this has already been discussed at length elsewhere. What I wanted to discuss here are sustainable growth drivers (beyond commodities) and real-world tell-tale signs that an emerging country is on a credible path to "make it" to fully developed status.

You will know that Chile is on a "credible" path when the people who actually live in Chile have a stake in the wealth created by its people. This stake IS the "sustainable growth drivers" you seek. If you continue to look through your labor/resource exploitation model sources/prism like those provided by the economist and mercopress, you will seek in vain.

I hope you are satisfied master.
p.s. i couldn't agree more that GDP/capita is not an effective way to measure quality of life.

Hilarious. How long have you been in Chile again? Since you've got it all figured out, keep us posted on the success of your Chilean Worker Cooperative. You'll find soon enough that it takes two to tango.