Chile Forum

The other night we were at an event at my daughters' school. "La competicion de Alianzas." A type of competition between groups of students. Auditorium full of family etc.
We were blown away, and very bummed, at what we witnessed.
At the conclusion of announcing the winning side, the losing side, verbally, physically and violently, attacked the master of ceremony and kids from the other group. We thought it was part of an act. My 11 year old was actually afraid of being punched by some hysterical middle grader and fled (we are going after him to get him expelled). Won't happen though. Surprise.

The most violent were the age of that little fucker arrested for firebombing, ON TV, one of the buses the other day. The one immediately released...for attacking a bus with passengers, and firebombing it.
I've been living in a peaceful seaside town here for 25 years, and now am seeing this shit in school activities. We already expect it from the Santiago lumpen in the summer.
Why? because of the impunity given kids, and transmitted to them almost nightly on the news. THEY KNOW THEY WILL WALK.
The faculty, and other parents at the event reacted the way the rest of the country does to rioters. They didn't do shit. My wife broke it up, not the other faculty. They just sat there. And nothing was said by the principle after it broke up. the event just ended like that. I just had shoulder surgery and might have ended up back in the hospital if I had joined the altercation.
I love this country, I'm due to get citizenship even, but that night I was ready to pack it up and leave. Chile has morally gone to shit, ignorant scum exported from the capital. We were ashamed. I've been here for decades, and never would have dreamed of seeing this at an event like this even a few years ago.
Not good, not good.
We'll be Home Schooling next year most likely.
The noticeable escalated change in behavior is why some older members of this forum are calling for heavy handedness, a measure that was successful in the past.
And laws that enabled the police to prevent, not just clean up and take abuse.
Its also why I don't appreciate GoatSucker's ambivalent, self absorbed coments regarding the issue.

patagoniax wrote:

seawolf180 wrote:
Its also why I don't appreciate GoatSucker's ambivalent, self absorbed coments regarding the issue.

I suspect that he does not approve of the sort of thing that you are describing, rather that he is noting that there is never a dull moment, even if some of those moments result in disgust. In that respect, finding "good material in bad outcomes" is another reason that some writers stay on the job. It's disturbing, but it's happening.

If I am not mistaken, the laws and regulations that prevent teachers from conducting any sort of meaningful discipline in the schools were largely the result of the "progressive" Ballenet and Lagos (Socialist Party) administrations.

Fair enough, point talen.

Amd to think, my Chilena loves princess Michele. What a pass that lame dike president got on substance.

We had to cope with a similar gang at a school when we lived in Viña. It was a delight to come to Santiago, put our son in a decent school which was properly run.

It is 4.30 and I can't sleep so I will have a little rant. I have been listening to the blame game being played like a new Olympic sport around here for too long. You take your choice of what lies at the bottom of the poor standard of education here in Chile and you get a list of choices: present government, past governments, military governments, poorly paid teachers, poorly trained teachers. You can riot for the villain of your choice and probably all the above are true. But there is one group which has sailed under the radar and has never, as far as I can see, been blamed for any part in the collapse of decent education in Chile (because, yes, it once existed and it was free or as near as dammit). That group is the parents. The parents who make excuses for their kids rather than taking them to task, who blame the school when the kid fails but never push the kid to do his/her homework and study hard, who always take the kid's side rather than the teacher's, who will tell you their little darling didn't burn that bus when the evidence is right there in front of their face on national TV. How about them? Education is a tricycle with three wheels: school, teachers, parents. What happens when a wheel comes off your tricycle? Right. Well, right now we have a tricycle with no decent wheels on it and we scratch our heads and wonder what happened. Until schools are run as educational establishments and not money spinners, teachers are properly trained and every man jack of them evaluated and parents pull on the long trousers and take responsibility for their kids' behaviour in and out of the classroom - we aren't going anywhere.

Seawolf, I suspect that there are many parents who feel as you do but are too cowed to speak up. Make an appointment with the head of the school and ask why nothing was done at that ceremony to stop behaviour that was clearly wrong. Write to the Ministry if you have to. They are very big on bullying (even if they call it bulling) and that was what you witnessed. Ask the head directly if the school condones bullying. It is the one thing all schools are afraid of being accused of right now. The ministry does actually investigate complaints.

Don't get me wrong. I am not against helping the poor, but being poor does not give you a pass to commit crimes.

The real blame however, beyond 20 years of social policies that rewarded criminals, is the courts. The left passed that national court reform about 10+ years ago to make Chile's courts and jails more "human" and "modern", but they never re-adjusted after the reform to make them work again.

The supreme court, in recent days has essentially been coming out and saying they are not going to do anything.

The big call from some circles has been mandatory sentencing. Someone from the government the other day was saying the laws are harsh and on the books. The police can catch people doing these crimes. It is the courts that are giving them a pass and setting them free. For example the bus burning, has a prison time of up to 20 years. No one has any hope of these kids doing any real time.

I know a few judges. Some are even good personal friends. However, their left leanings are so far left that they are just shy of being openly communist (some are, but just won't say it in public). They bought in to the idea sold by the left that when criminals commit crimes, it is because the state failed to give them sufficient free stuff. Not mom. Not dad. The state.

You know, the other night I was watching the little bastard walk out of jail that burned the bus in Santiago with his mother. They could not show the face of the kid on TV because he was a minor, but they could show the face of the mother. There was no apologies from mom.

It occurred to me, 'why the hell are they not suing the parents for the damages'?

Make mom and dad feel the pain. Even if they have no money, in a name and shame sort of way.

So, I asked my wife about it. She says it is totally possible. It has been done. The laws are on the books. Parents are financially responsible for the damages their kids cause. So, why are they not going after mom and dad?

Totally with you on blaming bachelette and the socialist cronies for coddling the criminals for years. Criminals voted too, or at least their families did.

Well, those days are hopefully over with the new voting reform law. A hard right right turn is coming in the country, now that the criminals and the families that support them can stay home and drink on election day if they like. The bus burning kids are not going to show on election day. They might be out burning buses, blocking the polls, or whatever; but, they will not be voting.

I seen an interesting, and sudden change in our own local small town mayor in Frutillar that is up for re-election. He is a socialist. He is like the poster child for why the socialist in Chile are bunch of scum bags. He literally built tracks of free government houses using money given to him by the bachelette administration, and transplanted criminals and their families from Santiago to pump up his voter base in this small town (not hard with such a small population). He built gettos, and stocked them his voters. He would go on the radio and say things like, "it is the rich of frutillar bajo that are keeping you down". Seriously, encouraging the poorer section of town to wage some sort of class warfare, justify robberies, and so on. His plan for improving the beach in front of the lake was to simply concrete over the park that was there, like we were in communist Russia or something.

Well, the new voter reform law went through. he realizes his voter base has evaporated, along with a lot of his campaign money; guess what? Our good socialist mayor has changed his tune, and you would think he has aspirations to be more of proper right wing capitalist than pinera. He buddied up with all the money in town (a.k.a los ricos de Frutillar bajo that were oppressing the people). He Is kissing the rear of the regional center right government (he knows they are going to be around a while). Suddenly crime control is a major issue for him. That includes a new plan for a city wide home alarm system and centralized monitoring network, using a grant he got from the right government. Guess the criminals are not going to vote for him this time. The mayor is all about jobs and tourism now, and preserving the German traditions in town (you know they are not left voters).

He has gone harder right in the last 6 months, than the center-right regional government. The center-right has been running around town giving housing to the poor in the area, and bunch of other social programs.

So, I seriously think this mayor elections around the country will indicate just how big this shift will be with the voluntary voting laws. If the left fails to show up at the poles even a little bit (I think it will be a lot), they may never show up again. It will be a serious signal to all up and coming politicians, that they can no longer throw some goodies at the poor and expect it to translate in to votes. It also has not hurt the right that they have managed to get more money in to the pockets of the poor in couple years, than the left did in 20 years. It's the economy stupid.

admin wrote:Don't get me wrong. I am not against helping the poor, but being poor does not give you a pass to commit crimes.

The real blame however, beyond 20 years of social policies that rewarded criminals, is the courts. The left passed that national court reform about 10+ years ago to make Chile's courts and jails more "human" and "modern", but they never re-adjusted after the reform to make them work again.

The supreme court, in recent days has essentially been coming out and saying they are not going to do anything.

The big call from some circles has been mandatory sentencing. Someone from the government the other day was saying the laws are harsh and on the books. The police can catch people doing these crimes. It is the courts that are giving them a pass and setting them free. For example the bus burning, has a prison time of up to 20 years. No one has any hope of these kids doing any real time.

I know a few judges. Some are even good personal friends. However, their left leanings are so far left that they are just shy of being openly communist (some are, but just won't say it in public). They bought in to the idea sold by the left that when criminals commit crimes, it is because the state failed to give them sufficient free stuff. Not mom. Not dad. The state.

You know, the other night I was watching the little bastard walk out of jail that burned the bus in Santiago with his mother. They could not show the face of the kid on TV because he was a minor, but they could show the face of the mother. There was no apologies from mom.

It occurred to me, 'why the hell are they not suing the parents for the damages'?

Make mom and dad feel the pain. Even if they have no money, in a name and shame sort of way.

So, I asked my wife about it. She says it is totally possible. It has been done. The laws are on the books. Parents are financially responsible for the damages their kids cause. So, why are they not going after mom and dad?

Totally with you on blaming bachelette and the socialist cronies for coddling the criminals for years. Criminals voted too, or at least their families did.

Well, those days are hopefully over with the new voting reform law. A hard right right turn is coming in the country, now that the criminals and the families that support them can stay home and drink on election day if they like. The bus burning kids are not going to show on election day. They might be out burning buses, blocking the polls, or whatever; but, they will not be voting.

I seen an interesting, and sudden change in our own local small town mayor in Frutillar that is up for re-election. He is a socialist. He is like the poster child for why the socialist in Chile are bunch of scum bags. He literally built tracks of free government houses using money given to him by the bachelette administration, and transplanted criminals and their families from Santiago to pump up his voter base in this small town (not hard with such a small population). He built gettos, and stocked them his voters. He would go on the radio and say things like, "it is the rich of frutillar bajo that are keeping you down". Seriously, encouraging the poorer section of town to wage some sort of class warfare, justify robberies, and so on. His plan for improving the beach in front of the lake was to simply concrete over the park that was there, like we were in communist Russia or something.

Well, the new voter reform law went through. he realizes his voter base has evaporated, along with a lot of his campaign money; guess what? Our good socialist mayor has changed his tune, and you would think he has aspirations to be more of proper right wing capitalist than pinera. He buddied up with all the money in town (a.k.a los ricos de Frutillar bajo that were oppressing the people). He Is kissing the rear of the regional center right government (he knows they are going to be around a while). Suddenly crime control is a major issue for him. That includes a new plan for a city wide home alarm system and centralized monitoring network, using a grant he got from the right government. Guess the criminals are not going to vote for him this time. The mayor is all about jobs and tourism now, and preserving the German traditions in town (you know they are not left voters).

He has gone harder right in the last 6 months, than the center-right regional government. The center-right has been running around town giving housing to the poor in the area, and bunch of other social programs.

So, I seriously think this mayor elections around the country will indicate just how big this shift will be with the voluntary voting laws. If the left fails to show up at the poles even a little bit (I think it will be a lot), they may never show up again. It will be a serious signal to all up and coming politicians, that they can no longer throw some goodies at the poor and expect it to translate in to votes. It also has not hurt the right that they have managed to get more money in to the pockets of the poor in couple years, than the left did in 20 years. It's the economy stupid.

i wouldn't put you money on the city wide alarm system... Lo Barnehceas answer was to install a panic button in each house that just makes a loud siren go, that relies on your neighbours actually paying attention and giving a a damn to do something about it

seawolf180 wrote:

patagoniax wrote:

seawolf180 wrote:
Its also why I don't appreciate GoatSucker's ambivalent, self absorbed coments regarding the issue.

I suspect that he does not approve of the sort of thing that you are describing, rather that he is noting that there is never a dull moment, even if some of those moments result in disgust. In that respect, finding "good material in bad outcomes" is another reason that some writers stay on the job. It's disturbing, but it's happening.

If I am not mistaken, the laws and regulations that prevent teachers from conducting any sort of meaningful discipline in the schools were largely the result of the "progressive" Ballenet and Lagos (Socialist Party) administrations.

Fair enough, point talen.

Amd to think, my Chilena loves princess Michele. What a pass that lame dike president got on substance.

Your response and your use of the word dyke says more about you than Bachelet I'm afraid. I always get a chuckle when we expats criticize Chileans and yet use a word dyke. In the context that you used it it sounds hateful. Just my take though. I would have thought that we were a bit more progressive on certain issues. And to the best of my knowledge, Bachelet is not a lesbian. But I get it. In your small mind, all women who are overweight and maybe not to your standards of attractiveness are 'dykes'. It seems to me Chileans have nothing on some expats when it comes to being sexist.

It was tasteless. You are right. I should have left it at lame. And added bad for the country.
Kids show no respect for any one, I showed none for her, my mistake.
I admit it, and address it. Something I may have never seen from a Chilean, including her.
She would never consider she laked "some" leadership. For example, She sat there waffling with ONEMI at her side after an 8.8, 3 minute long earhquake, about whether they should sound a tsunami alert. If emergency services is floundering in a situation like that. The head of state should take some definitive action. Like error on the side of caution. And then let the lumpen loot for three days before taking obvious security measures. Prefering to protect her sacred image as a victom of reppression. Pathetic leader. And the list goes on.
And she is the probable candidare. Care for more Bachelette style public safety?

She sold out our saftey in the name out ideology. More "Human rights", an idea, taking precidence over public safty, their job.
To return to the thread. Which wasnt being progressive abd PC. Though youre right.
Progressive, gets you the left, gets you robbed or attacked.
Gets us the the rioting we see everywhere. Even a grade school event.

And we are doing something about what happened. We have made it clear to the schools owner we will pull our daughter out of his school, and publicly denounce the school in the local press if he doesnt take action. So he thinks about his wallet. Starting with the brats making a public apology.

Well everybody has had a good old rant about various issues: the revolting schoolkids and their equally revolting parents, local government corruption, (one reason I am dead against dis-centralization), the Legal system, (nothing new here either, read El libro negro de la Justicia Chilena), the populist farce that is national government, etc etc. And the longer you stay the more you see.

Although all the complaints aired in this thread are justifiable, the trouble is that you are all still using your gringo values as a yardstick. Nothing wrong with that, I try to abide by those same rules. But I find although most Chileans do possess ethical values, especially when judging the conduct of others, the ubiquitous urge to sacar provecho from any situation will override moral scruples every time. You can bitch all you want but you wont change this fact of life.

fraggle092 wrote:Well everybody has had a good old rant about various issues: the revolting schoolkids and their equally revolting parents, local government corruption, (one reason I am dead against dis-centralization), the Legal system, (nothing new here either, read El libro negro de la Justicia Chilena), the populist farce that is national government, etc etc. And the longer you stay the more you see.

Although all the complaints aired in this thread are justifiable, the trouble is that you are all still using your gringo values as a yardstick. Nothing wrong with that, I try to abide by those same rules. But I find although most Chileans do possess ethical values, especially when judging the conduct of others, the ubiquitous urge to sacar provecho from any situation will override moral scruples every time. You can bitch all you want but you wont change this fact of life.

No. Dont agree at all, You are wrong about something. Anyone who has been here long enough knows how generally civil things used to be.

seawolf180:
>At the conclusion of announcing the winning side, the losing side, verbally, >physically and violently, attacked the master of ceremony and kids from the other >group.

I am trying to remember when and where I heard of some similar problem, with the school hesitant to act, and I seem to remember that it had to do with the wealth and/or power of the parents of the students. Could that be the case?

seawolf180 wrote:
No. Dont agree at all, You are wrong about something. Anyone who has been here long enough knows how generally civil things used to be.

Very true and all sorts of reasons for it. But right now it is the empty barrels who seem to be making the most noise.

Donnybrook wrote:

seawolf180 wrote:
No. Dont agree at all, You are wrong about something. Anyone who has been here long enough knows how generally civil things used to be.

Very true and all sorts of reasons for it. But right now it is the empty barrels who seem to be making the most noise.

My idea of an empty barrel;