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Renouncing US citizenship hits an iceberg?

Postby no country for young men » Mon May 14, 2012 10:53 am

Well discount the source of the article perhaps, but read on:

http://www.sovereignman.com/expat/man-t ... on-denied/

"...
Man tries to relinquish US citizenship. Application Denied.

by <banned topic on this forum> · 15 comments

April 25, 2012
Santiago, Chile

I was approached recently by a member of our Sovereign Man community who filed the paperwork to relinquish US citizenship some time ago. Long story short, after an incomprehensibly long wait, the US government finally sent him a reply: Application DENIED.

Absolutely shocking. That you even have to ‘apply’ to relinquish what you never signed up for is intellectually insulting. That you cannot do so freely, and immediately, is nothing short of totalitarian.
...."

Has anyone heard of this happening?
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Re: Renouncing US citizenship hits an iceberg?

Postby admin » Mon May 14, 2012 12:16 pm

yea, if you go in there and rant about whatever your political rant is, chances are they are not going to take you all that seriously.

A person who wants to renounce U.S. citizenship cannot decide to retain some of the privileges of citizenship, as this would be logically inconsistent with the concept of renunciation. Thus, such a person can be said to lack a full understanding of renouncing citizenship and/or lack the necessary intent to renounce citizenship, and the Department of State will not approve a loss of citizenship in such instances.
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Re: Renouncing US citizenship hits an iceberg?

Postby nwdiver » Mon May 14, 2012 1:46 pm

I had to look I haven’t seen Simon in years. He got his hooks into a friend I spent months extracting.

One of his scare tactics he almost always mentions in these rants is highlights here, he is truly one of the great nut cases of the expat communities abroad.

“Children are saddled with obligations that they never signed up for– taxes, compulsory military service, a debilitating national debt, etc.”
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Re: Renouncing US citizenship hits an iceberg?

Postby admin » Mon May 14, 2012 5:58 pm

Yea, he never gives any more details about it, other than they were denied.

The big to do this week was one of the facebook founders renouncing his U.S. citizenship. That is a real surprise, surprise, considering the IPO is coming down the line.

As I recall, we had a member of the forum successfully renounce their U.S. citizenship not too long ago with no big issues. who was that?

It seems there are plenty of people out there able to renounce their U.S. citizenship just fine. Hell, that seems to be one of the U.S. government services that is actually functioning correctly.

As for the sovereign man bs, if you want to buy in to that "cult" thing he is selling (i.e. generate fear and insecurity about the friggen obvious, followed by offering a lifeline), good luck. I am actively telling people that contact us with questions related to what he is pushing in Chile, we will not represent them or be involved in anyway. They are on their own.The only piece of other advise I am giving away with that "go somewhere else" policy, is for them to hire a big law firm in Santiago. They will mostly likly need it sooner or later.

There is a real practical reason we are doing that also. We have found that over the years, the type of people that are easily sucked in to those expat "the sky is falling, jump now" schemes, also tend to make some really stupid investments in Chile and / or just get themselves in a lot of trouble. Likely the cause is simply they also tend to be the types that rush in to things or are otherwise impulsive, and in Chile that is a recipe for disaster (always).

Telling them to go away / stay home, is likly best advice we could give them and it is completely free. If you have trouble reasoning through that sort of stuff on your own and checking your impulses at the door, the problems you are going to encounter in Chile (and the rest of the World for that matter) will eat you alive.

They also tend to make terrible high maintenance clients, that are willing to spend lots of money getting themselves in to trouble but not a lot to get themselves out of trouble. Thus, their investment mistakes get compounded until they have nothing left, then they walk away and blaming it all on Chile.
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Re: Renouncing US citizenship hits an iceberg?

Postby no country for young men » Wed May 16, 2012 1:44 pm

From my digging around, I think the Facebook cofounder in Singapore is going to run into problems with the IRS: too much at stake and too close to IPO.
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Re: Renouncing US citizenship hits an iceberg?

Postby no country for young men » Wed May 16, 2012 2:03 pm

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-1 ... -bill.html

"...
Facebook Inc. (FB) co-founder Eduardo Saverin will save at least $67 million in federal income taxes by dropping U.S. citizenship, according to a Bloomberg analysis of the company’s stock price. Those savings will keep growing if Facebook’s shares increase.
....
Bloomberg calculated the $67 million figure by applying the 15 percent U.S. capital gains rate to the approximate $448 million spread between the two values. Bloomberg’s methodology was reviewed by Robert Willens, an independent tax adviser based in New York.

“The calculations and assumptions are not only erroneous, they also further perpetuate the false impression that tax was the reason behind Eduardo’s decision,” Goodman said, declining to cite specific errors. “His motive had nothing to do with tax and everything to do with his desire to live and work in Singapore.”
...."

Interesting that there is no discussion in the article on the IRS' attitude towards those who renounce for tax purposes. My understanding is that the IRS doesn't recognize renouncement if they determine it was done to avoid taxes.
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Re: Renouncing US citizenship hits an iceberg?

Postby eeuunikkeiexpat » Wed May 16, 2012 2:08 pm

“His motive had nothing to do with tax and everything to do with his desire to live and work in Singapore.”

I'm sold on buying that bridge! :lol:
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BUT when necessary, by way of riducule and truth revelation we shalt do war.

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Re: Renouncing US citizenship hits an iceberg?

Postby admin » Wed May 16, 2012 2:13 pm

I think it is not so much that the IRS has an issue with it or even avoiding taxes is a bad reason for leaving, as long as you declare and pay your taxes on the way out.

As I understand, the IRS determines your assets on the day you expatriate, based on the liquid value of all of your assets. As long as you do not play games with that and the IRS gets their cut, what is the problem? Hell, does he get a refund if his facebook stock tanks 2 weeks later? Not likely.

Also, this guy was only a U.S. citizen since like 1998. He was born in Brazil.
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Re: Renouncing US citizenship hits an iceberg?

Postby no country for young men » Wed May 16, 2012 2:16 pm

patagoniax wrote:.

I found this US citizen renunciation story to be interesting reading, though not directly related to Chile. I have heard of similar obstructionism from State not only for US citizens but for permanent residents attempting to give up their ''green cards" as well. No personal comment in this, nor dog in this fight, simply posting interesting reading.

http://www.debito.org/deamericanize.html


renunc.JPG


Interesting - having faced the "no foreigners" "establishments' when I lived in Japan. The idea of complaining about it to the US consulate is pretty funny - a human right to soapland?



"...
CONCLUSIONS

"Now, you understand that if you ever go back to the US, you will have to apply for a tourist visa and go through all the steps like any other alien, right?" the gaping consulate clerk cautioned me.

Yes, I thought, and watching the way America treats foreigners nowadays, I am in no hurry. I can see quite a few eyebrows raised when a White boy displays a Japanese passport at American Immigration. I'm sure naturally-suspicious Customs officers will have queries about forgeries, if not my patriotism.

That's it then. I'm here for good, for better or for worse. As one gets older, Thomas Wolfe's famous book title rings ever truer. You really can't go home again. So what do you do? You make your home where you want it to be.

Arudou Debito
Sapporo
January 10, 2003
...."
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Re: Renouncing US citizenship hits an iceberg?

Postby admin » Wed May 16, 2012 4:58 pm

I don't know I have been treated like total and complete shit by U.S. immigration, with a U.S. passport, while all the foreigners with tourist visas were waved by, on way more that one occasion. In fact, I have had worse treatment by U.S. immigration than any country on the planet I have visited.
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Re: Renouncing US citizenship hits an iceberg?

Postby Vicki and Greg Lansen » Wed May 16, 2012 7:34 pm

I’ve never thought much about the subject, but this thread has me curious…do these people first obtain citizenship in their new country first, then renounce? You must have to do that, right? Otherwise, if you renounce and for some reason are denied citizenship in a new country, what does that make you? Are they people who have no citizenship ties to any country?
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Re: Renouncing US citizenship hits an iceberg?

Postby Andres » Wed May 16, 2012 7:52 pm

Vicki and Greg Lansen wrote:do these people first obtain citizenship in their new country first, then renounce? You must have to do that, right?

Yes, it is part of Dept of State's procedure to ensure the person intending to renounce citizenship has citizenship elsewhere. I do not know whether the law requires it.
Last edited by Andres on Wed May 16, 2012 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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