Chile Forum

Though I've never worked in the commercial air industry, I have briefed, boarded and flown with thousands of people in my fire career (that'd be forest fires) Most all of it is with helicopters, but some with fixed wing also.

We are given exemptons (by the FAA) for hazardous materials, such as chain saws, fuels, fusees (aka road flares) batteries, etc in order to do our job. We (especially myself as a helicopter manager or helibase mgr) have to adhere to some pretty strict rules. And we gladly do so. Not because the FAA tells us to, but because the environment in flight is a precarious one. Should something go wrong, you can't just stop the show and deal with it. If you want to get a helicopter pilot beyond nervous, have him start smelling 50:1 chain saw mix or smoke from a jammed PSD machine (used for prescribed fire) over crappy ground or continuous forest where there is nowhere to land for miles. Or tell him an article just flew out a window (and by definition towards the tail rotor).

Now, put yourself at 30,000 feet doing 500mph in a jetliner with 200+ people in it who speak 30 different languages, who you have never met before, who you know nothing about and who tend to see an airplane as little more than a bus to get across town. My firefighting situation is benign by comparison. I generally only fly people who know why they are there and they are getting paid to behave and go by the rules (even so, they make plenty of life-threatening mistakes around helicopters, in spite of the rather severe safety briefings we give). Yes, I can see where you certainly know yourself well enough to know you are not a threat. But the airline personnel don't know that.

Aviation has to have its rules. Pilots are some of the most anal people you'll meet- in a good way. I won't fly with sloppy pilots and in my career I have had one or two sent home (same with timber fallers). But pilots are also very confident and intelligent. Just the kind of person you want at 30,000 feet- or at 300 feet.

In the future you might want to medicate while in flight and not in the terminal lounge. Or practice meditation.

Seriously? They sell drinks on board (really frigen expensive drinks, but drinks). If you flew with a better class of airline, they give the drinks away. 3/4 of the people getting on that flight from Chile had been sipping pisco sours and wine before boarding an 8 hour or whatever flight. This is Chile after all, where 80% of the drivers stopped and tested at police checkpoints have been consuming alcohol. I find it hard to believe that is all it took.

Some of you might recall a couple of years ago I bought tickets for my niece to go to funeral from Chile and TSA flagged it. They had TSA waiting at the counter for her in Colorado when she checked in. The only thing different about that purchase was my IP address was in Chile. Used an American bank card to buy it on an American ticket site.

Back when my wife and I were going to school in Europe, she had to fly back to Chile to get a Dutch student visa. Security met her at the gate in the Netherlands, and escorted her to the door. Then on a layover in Beligum she was escorted again. On another layover in Miami they grilled her for half an hour. Although in that case she really was doing something suspicious. She was a woman travelling alone with only a backpack. I got to give them that one.

If you scratch the wrong way, you can get flagged by TSA. I don't think there is anyway to really avoid it, except stay out the United States.

But this morning we have this bit of news from a freedom of information act request disclosing the DHS and TSA monitoring of social media sites for political descent.
http://epic.org/foia/epic-v-dhs-media-monitoring/
http://epic.org/2012/01/epic---foia-doc ... eal-h.html
http://news.slashdot.org/story/12/01/14 ... al-dissent

Hell, you should see how the booze flows on that same flight in business class. Don't ask me how I know

Since further info is not available, I perceive this was retaliation to how the wife was acting. I am assuming she was not being polite or submissive about rearranging seating. The old fogey flight attendants retaliated by doing something that would be sure to piss her off even more perhaps to the point that maybe she would be arrested on arrival.

In all this, who checks the pilots and navigators’ breath when they get on a plane?

patagoniax wrote:

Red wrote: Pilots are some of the most anal people you'll meet-

It's time we stopped worshiping airplane people (and doctors and attorneys and septic-tank installers, among others) and put them in their proper place.

And where might that be?

patagoniax wrote:

Red wrote: Pilots are some of the most anal people you'll meet-

I know a guy from long ago who became a commercial pilot for American Airlines. He never finished high school. In fact he was kicked out of high school for what was described as getting into a fight with a teacher. There are more like him out there. Just because you can dress them up and give them badgers doesn't make them special. It's time we stopped worshiping airplane people (and doctors and attorneys and septic-tank installers, among others) and put them in their proper place.

Read back over my post; I've had pilots hauled up and -this is no mean feat- had it stick. They aren't endlessly special and I watch a new pilot very closely when I first work with him or her. The same way I watch a doctor or septic tank installer.

That way, I worry a whole lot less when buildings become mere specks.

And drinking? Sure, they do it. I've tipped a few with pilots. The old Vietnam pilots were a different breed. A pilot doesn't have to be on the wagon to be professional. It's disingenuous to suggest just because they have a drink that they deal with it the same way the public would. I can't say what the commercial industry rule is but for helicopter pilots, it's 8 hrs bottle-to-throttle. And they are effectively on the clock no later than 6am (it's the way the duty day works- long story). That means if they have a beer at 10pm, that's ok. As a manager, I've never known a pilot to violate any written or unwritten rule. It means their job and possibly their certification.

"...and give them badgers doesn't make them special...". Well, maybe not special, but certainly noticeable- from all the claw marks.

By coincidence, last weekend, my mother-in-law, who is a flight attendant for a regional US carrier, stayed with us. Over the course of 3-4 days, she passed some time by putting training videos into her computer. I watched some and listened passively to a couple hours of them. The over-riding lesson being taught was how to take control of emergency situations (which can include combative passengers). It was fairly intense stuff. The flight attendants are taught to take a no nonsense approach. Sorry folks, but they have to maintain order within that cabin. You want to act up and do your own thing, do it on your own time. Buying a ticket doesn't infer any special rights or priviledges- other than those spelled out in the fine print.

Really, this whole subject should be decisively separated from the issue of terrorism and the so-called WOT, which has been a fraud since the fraud of 9/11. Drinking and flying- it's just a completely different concern.

patagoniax wrote:Just because you can dress them up and give them badgers doesn't make them special.

They give them badgers??? Cool, might have re-thought my career path if I'd known

Red wrote:

patagoniax wrote:

Red wrote: Pilots are some of the most anal people you'll meet-

I know a guy from long ago who became a commercial pilot for American Airlines. He never finished high school. In fact he was kicked out of high school for what was described as getting into a fight with a teacher. There are more like him out there. Just because you can dress them up and give them badgers doesn't make them special. It's time we stopped worshiping airplane people (and doctors and attorneys and septic-tank installers, among others) and put them in their proper place.

Read back over my post; I've had pilots hauled up and -this is no mean feat- had it stick. They aren't endlessly special and I watch a new pilot very closely when I first work with him or her. The same way I watch a doctor or septic tank installer.

That way, I worry a whole lot less when buildings become mere specks.

And drinking? Sure, they do it. I've tipped a few with pilots. The old Vietnam pilots were a different breed. A pilot doesn't have to be on the wagon to be professional. It's disingenuous to suggest just because they have a drink that they deal with it the same way the public would. I can't say what the commercial industry rule is but for helicopter pilots, it's 8 hrs bottle-to-throttle. And they are effectively on the clock no later than 6am (it's the way the duty day works- long story). That means if they have a beer at 10pm, that's ok. As a manager, I've never known a pilot to violate any written or unwritten rule. It means their job and possibly their certification.

"...and give them badgers doesn't make them special...". Well, maybe not special, but certainly noticeable- from all the claw marks.

By coincidence, last weekend, my mother-in-law, who is a flight attendant for a regional US carrier, stayed with us. Over the course of 3-4 days, she passed some time by putting training videos into her computer. I watched some and listened passively to a couple hours of them. The over-riding lesson being taught was how to take control of emergency situations (which can include combative passengers). It was fairly intense stuff. The flight attendants are taught to take a no nonsense approach. Sorry folks, but they have to maintain order within that cabin. You want to act up and do your own thing, do it on your own time. Buying a ticket doesn't infer any special rights or priviledges- other than those spelled out in the fine print.

Really, this whole subject should be decisively separated from the issue of terrorism and the so-called WOT, which has been a fraud since the fraud of 9/11. Drinking and flying- it's just a completely different concern.

Red,
Thanks for the anecdotal infomation. I wholeheartedly concur with your summary.

I understood that flight attendants actually like it when passengers drink some alcohol as it makes them more relaxed (and probably also discards them as being terrorists).

I would even venture that there have been no accidents historically because of drunken passengers, but there definitely have been incidents involving drunk pilots.

And yes, only fly US carriers of you have no other choice.

But this morning we have this bit of news from a freedom of information act request disclosing the DHS and TSA monitoring of social media sites for political descent.
http://epic.org/foia/epic-v-dhs-media-monitoring/
http://epic.org/2012/01/epic---foia-doc ... eal-h.html
http://news.slashdot.org/story/12/01/14 ... al-dissent

FYI, @AnotherJoe : check out these links, particularly the last one .. you've had some interesting commentary re: TSA on your own blog.

Good god DSW...My heart goes out to you. I know what f-asses TSA and other airline persons can be. From the creep in the bowels of the airport who stole a Nike Gear Jewelry box (filled with MY hand-made fired-clay beads instead of expensive jewelry) and the extensive, ridiculous claims process, to the idiots who bark at you to "move along" as you try to grab your shoes, belt, change, computer and at the security areas, to the fuckers who gleefully inform you that "you don't have to fly with us today" when you complain about one ticket agent for 150 people who have been waiting two hours to check in, to the flight attendants who, on a half empty plane, will not let you sit in any of the leg-room seats by the emergency exits because they are "premium seats".

I made my last trip to the states in October. I can't do it anymore. My heart, and my sanity cannot deal with the travel there, or what I find when I get there. I always find myself asking the ridiculous question..."What happened to decency"? Unfortunately, the "states" have considerable influence over countries that have previously - at least- been decent in the travel business. Maybe not efficient, but decent. I'm done with the sheep mentality..."Oh, they have a hard job"..."it's the rules...there must be rules" excuses. Bullshit. Being decent is something that has been lost in air travel especially. Safety and rules are an excuse to be a fucking asshole for too many folks.

If I ever MUST travel back through the states, I am thinking of collecting some Tiffany Jewelry boxes. Filling them with nice gifts from my dog. Placing them in my bags and upon arriving and finding them gone, smiling. By the way, having an irrational fear of flying, I never fly withouth my pre-flight medication regiment: A Guinness to coat the stomach, two martini's and .25 mg. of clonazapan (if I can get it). I board, buckle up, slam into a nice sleep and awake in time for landing. Flight attendants are much better off than a freaking-out jumpy woman crying at each bump and weave of the big metal tube as we careen from point A to point B.

God bless you DSW for somehow maintaining.

Another experience:

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/post ... r/604369/1