Chile Forum

I have been reading the 911 time line all day. It is like the 911 investigation report we never got from congress. Well documented, and hundreds of pages long. It is not all conspiracy theory B.S., it has well cited sources and connections between well known historical events, that tie all the events in bringing about 911.

I still have not gotten to the post-911 pages. It is a really really fascinating read. I want to go back and spend more time reading the sources it links to in more detail.

I agree. Great read but lengthy and I keep stopping to read the links. i sometimes think the internet and all the people that document and organize information for us represent our greatest freedom these days.

I saw a documentary the other night "Why We Fight" relating to US war over the years and the military industrial complex that Eisenhower famously warned about. Really non-partisan, I think, and really excellent.

have y'all watched the loose change 911 video? what d'yall think?
jon

a little video here for everyone....

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/fellows/chile_2008/



p out.

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Somehow this thread merged with State of States, not that I mind, but maybe you might want to cross-post.

Vicki

From the posting on the site

(anonymous)
How horrible..,Chilean nazis...that's a oxymoron. Do they not look in the mirror and see an ethnic person? With brown skin and exotic features, they are a far cry from the typical Neo Nazi. They are want to bes. Please figure out a way to help your country instead of hurting it. If Hitler was right in his warped ideology, the Nazi party would still be a driving force today, instead of these sad people living in the faded shadows of Hitler.

The ignorance of Chile's history and demographics is a sort of ironic racism in itself. Kind of like saying, "I have black friends" to prove your not a racists.

People who don't know Chile seem to think Chile is just like Mexico or Central America where a handful of Europeans mixed in with a massive indigenous population and the countries are still 80% - 90 % made up of mixes of Indian descendants or more. Anyone that has been to both Peru and Chile, knows what I am talking about. Those are very mixed cultures.

The Europeans that make up better than 98% of the Chilean population never mixed with the Indian groups like the Mapuche, in part because there was not a whole lot of them to start with on either side and the indigenous populations was very successful at fighting off the invaders and holding their lands. It is only really in the last 50 years that the European descended population has even made any sort of population dent in to areas where indigenous tribes traditionally lived such as in the South.

Chile is a very racist society on many levels, but much of this is in part a product of the isolation of Chile from other groups.

The other irony is that Mapuche say they never really had a problem with the Spanish. It was only after Chile declared itself a country that they started having problems with the white population laying claim to their land.

When I first came to Chile I went to a theater (seems the M word is band ) with an American friend. As we were waiting for the show to start and people where coming in to the theater to sit down, he leaned over and asked me if I had ever seen such a homogeneous population. I still have not. Not even in China. Even in China with a bit of study, you can detect the kind of rainbow of different features from the various ethnic groups on the faces of populations in any given crowd. Even among the dominant Han Chinese group, there are marked distinctions from region to region. Not in Chile.

The dark features of Chileans are rarely from American Indian influences, but from Mediterranean and other European influences in the gene pool.

I just wanted to extend a belated thank you for those stories, they were very interesting. I felt like I was watching a well though out documentary for a moment there. Thanks a lot Puelche.

During our 2006 trip, Greg and I stayed a few days in Osorno, a fairly good-sized town in the Lakes Region. There we noticed people who were very tall, blond-haired, blue-eyed. I mean A LOT of germanic-looking folks. In the coffee shop off the Plaza del Armas, we met an elderly man, very German name, who took us around, helped us with some logistical questions, gave us a great map of Chile, and in general was a very nice man. But, he was very quick to point out to us that while he was German, his ancestors came in the 1800's, not the 30's or 40's. In fact, I believe that was the very first thing he mentioned to us. I've heard that many times when we've met Chileans of German descent...that their families came in the 1800's, not in the 40's. The schools in Osorno were founded in the 1850's by Germans. So, while I see that there was a wave of German settlers in the 1800's, I also would assume that new immigrants would flock to those areas, as opposed to starting somewhere where there were no other countrymen.

Vicki

During my years living in south (Chiloe) I made many friends with those German-huasos, it is true, in the 1800s from Temuco to south it was an impenetrable wet jungle, and Vicente Perez Rosales was in charge to bring colonos from Germany, after hundred years of sacrifice they finally dominated (and in certain way, rationally devastated) all the territory to turn into the south we know now. The German-huasos has a very funny mix of customs and many of them are more "huasos brutos" than any Chilean descendant. The exception is in Osorno, in my opinion, one of the most classicist, snob and closed places in Chile

By classic snob places" I assume you mean they think highly of themselves. I suppose, I didn't spend long enough there to really delve into the feel of the place. However, an interesting incident happened when Greg and I stayed at a comfortable dumpy hospadajae there. Four flights up a narrow staircase to our attic room, I dumped the packs and went down to pay the owner. She was an elderly, faded-blonde woman sipping instant coffee and chomping on some cookies. Her name was Giesella, or something like that. I asked, in friendly conversation, if she was German. She lifted herself up and slapped the table with her big, Germanic hand and yelled, NINE!! Whoopsy!

It's possible our experiences in Osorno were shaped by the fact that people often think I'm from Germany (which is the country of my birth, but not nationality) and the fact that I often look simply like a hapless tourist, which when traveling abroad is an invitation for pity, or robbery. Depending on the country.

Vicki

I have not spent a whole lot of time in Osorno, but now that I think about it it is fairly in your face as people talk about other people. Fairly strange for communities in the south. They tend to be fairly well integrated if for no other reason than there are not a lot of people. We found Temuco to be surprisingly racially integrated. Mapuche seem to be fairly well respected and thought well of, there are some Chinese families in town that are very highly respected, I see lots of black Brazilians wondering around town. In fact, Temuco is likely one of the most diverse cities I have seen in Chile, or at least Southern Chile.

Still I think the German club in Osorno has some of the best food in Southern Chile.

You must try the pisco sour there!
Chile is not a racist country but is very, very classiest, Osorno is one of the most classicist places I have ever met in our classiest country

I agree that Chile is a classist society than a racist society. Racism is a misperception that many newcomers to Chile (including myself) often make. I think that this is a trend taking hold in the US as well; outside of extreme right hate groups, it seems that even the most prejudiced of people are accepting of diversity as long as that diversity is wealthy. I'm not trying to imply that classism is a lesser evil th an racism, rather its just a trend I have noticed. (i.e. The rich white suburbanite who makes racist statements concerning poor urban minorities yet points to his/her affluent minority friends as proof that he/she is not racist.

The class system in Chile far more of problem I think. I do believe a lot of the old class molds are breaking a bit, as Chile develops a much larger middle class. Access to education is the key to fixing class problems. If even the poorest kids can have access to the best education, then classes break down fairly fast or at least mobility increases between them.

But there are a huge social mobility in Chile, though is not apparent to people. Just check the main fortunes in the country: Lucksic, Angelline, Cruzat, Yarur, Hirmas, Sahieh, Paulmann, Claro, all of those are first or second generation wealth. There are some few exceptions like Matte who beside to be rich has been very frugale and smart over generations (something VERY odd in Chile), others with more than 100 years are Edwards but are a declining fortune much smaller than they used to be.

The middle class mobility is actually very quick: Presidents Alessandri, Allende, Frei Montalva, Pinochet, Aylwin, Lagos and Bachellet was son of midlle to middle low class, the last "aristocratic" president I can remember was Balmaceda in the 1800s

Most of political and economical power is taked for inmigrants or son of inmigrants (we the grandsons are the poor )
Lcksic Croat, Angellini Italian, Cruzat French, Yarur, Hirmas Saied Palestines, Paullman German, Claro is the hispanic exception. In politic
Allessandri italian, Allende and Lagos Hispanics, Frei Swiss, Pinochet French, Aylwin Scottich, Bachelet French