Chile Forum

JHyre wrote:This situation has given rise to the Tea Party, thankfully. And your attempts to paint them as American Taliban notwithstanding,

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I never said they were busy blowing themselves up or planning terrorist action but many of their members do hold some of the same believes as the Taliban.

that movement is really about the spending.

You know, I do agree with some of their ideas about cutting spending and financial responsibility but if they were elected they wouldn't just follow that policy. They be a much easier party to like if they didn't have so many bigoted supporters (I'm not calling you a bigot by the way). You also have to wonder whose tool political tool are they? For example the 'The Americans for Prosperity group' is a tool of the Koch brothers and is clearly supporting their agenda which I find strange since the Koch brothers don't have any good intentions for the average working American.

PenquistaDeCorazon wrote:How on earth do they believe that roads get built? Monopoly money?

Umm. Yeah. Big Ben's printing press puts out little green paper that is by definition monopoly money.

Roads get built by guys in yellow hats on graders and other heavy equipment.

john wrote:Px,

Delighted to hear that your ex is running a successful company. Since you made reference to Google applications, is her company located in Google territory (i.e. Mountain View, CA)? If so, her employee political profile is very interesting indeed in that the registered voter profile there (and in all of Santa Clara County) is decidedly majority Democrat (two thirds of all registered voters). Maybe she is a 'closet' Democrat in disguise.

Maybe majority democrat, but the heart of Silicon Valley has always been libertarian, or was in my day and until recently. It will die / is dying / has recently died when its libertarian heart stops beating.

Went up to New Hampshire last weekend to ski Tuckerman's Ravine. I was puzzled to see a little sign in somebody's yard saying "Soros-Go Home".
Turns out he and a bunch of other one-worlders were there staging Bretton Woods II - planning/celebrating the demise of the dollar.

passport wrote:Went up to New Hampshire last weekend to ski Tuckerman's Ravine. I was puzzled to see a little sign in somebody's yard saying "Soros-Go Home".
Turns out he and a bunch of other one-worlders were there staging Bretton Woods II - planning/celebrating the demise of the dollar.

Soros, as everyone knows, is the Alpha Democrat who attempted to bankrupt the UK.

passport wrote:Went up to New Hampshire last weekend to ski Tuckerman's Ravine. I was puzzled to see a little sign in somebody's yard saying "Soros-Go Home".
Turns out he and a bunch of other one-worlders were there staging Bretton Woods II - planning/celebrating the demise of the dollar.

Gotta luv the progressives, funded by a guy who made his fortune impoverishing Thais, Malaysians by trashing their currencies, a guy who has never made a productive dollar in his entire life and who was the buttboy for a Nazi colonel, sending his own neighbors to concentration camps.

Hello Spang,

Well I had owed you some nice back & forth from way back on “What They Really Think of You Thread”, the one that various folks translated as the “racism” or “Pakistan” thread. So here we go:

(I'm not calling you a bigot by the way).

First, let me say I appreciate the manners. They help on difficult topics where emotions run high. It also helps that your actions are consistent with your words....in other words, you are also not implying that I am a bigot, etc. If you find me getting rude to you (as opposed to others who have it coming), please let me know. I would prefer to keep this discussion sharp but civil, and do not wish to be the one who initiates needless nastiness. Of course, I do not expect either of us to pull punches on substance. OK, let’s do this thing.

but many of their members do hold some of the same believes as the Taliban.

That strikes me as an inaccurate and incendiary statement. For example, Winston Churchill had some of the same beliefs as Hitler, such as “my country should have police force and citizens should pay taxes”. Does that mean that Winston and the Nazi’s are comparable? Of course not. The Tea Partiers and the Taliban do not have anywhere near so much in common as to even begin to justify such a comparison.

Nor do the more religiously inclined TP’s (e.g. Palin, etc) have enough in common with Taliban to merit such a comparison. Are people such as Palin more socially conservative than libertarians & libertines? Sure. So much so that they should be compared to people who have imposed theocratic rule, maimed women (remember that Time magazine cover?) and otherwise forced barbaric sharia customs on Afghanistan? Come on.

I do detect a certain “I don’t want them Christians imposing their values on me” train of thought, one that you made pretty explicit in “What They Think” thread. I suppose in the abstract the libertarian in me could agree with it, if I thought it were really a danger. But in reality, the Christians in the US & Europe are neither inclined (excepting the stereotypical redneck “you will burn in hell” screamer, who constitute a small minority of Christians, though the press & left try hard to stereotype otherwise) nor able to do such a thing. Very much the opposite. The “values” being pushed in the schools, universities, press, movies & courts are almost uniformly from the left, and largely the antithesis of traditional Christian mores. Tell me, do you object to the left pushing its values via the schools, etc, as well? With a few exceptions, I am not very interested in having any particular set of values pushed via the schools, etc....though if I had to choose a set to push/have pushed on me, I’d take traditional Christian (distinct from fringe “screamer” Christianity) over left/politically correct any day.

They be a much easier party to like if they didn't have so many bigoted supporters

A media/leftist smear, one that they (NOTE: I did not say or mean "you") use often to avoid argument....remember the “What They Think” thread? Perfect case in point. Lots of direct & indirect name calling from certain quarters, no arguments or discussion at all. I respectfully hope that you will re-evaluate your opinion based on the tainted facts that I think underlie it. While any large movement will have some unsavoury folks in it, the Tea Party seems remarkably free of such influences. See, for example: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/ ... oy-murdock.

Yes, that’s from conservative National Review – if they have misrepresented facts, you will doubtless show me. Of course, TP has to be very, very careful....one idiot yelling a vile word on camera, and the whole movement immediately gets tarred, unlike, for example, the Democrat Party, whose late, very senior and long-serving Senator Robert Byrd was undisputedly high up in the KKK, see Wikipedia and the accompanying apologia....helps to have friends in the press, hmmm?

Here’s a nice little chat I googled: http://www.theamericanright.com/forums/ ... 0&p=176106
See especially ABC news link. Yes, it’s a conservative blog. If you see any factual misrepresentations, please bring them to my attention. Basically: Every large movement has nutjobs who show up, that’s not what the movement is about, unless you have enough nutjobs, in which case they are the movement. In the case of TP, they bend over backwards to screen out the freaks.

For example the 'The Americans for Prosperity group' is a tool of the Koch brothers and is clearly supporting their agenda which I find strange since the Koch brothers don't have any good intentions for the average working American

Same reply as with the racism point. First, I do not have the sinister view of Koch brothers that you do. Of course, I do not have a sinister view of George Soros either. I strongly disagree with and dislike him, but my issues with MoveOn.org et al have more to do with philosophy and little to do with who supports them. It’s about the principles. Given how grass-roots, spontaneous and chaotic the TP is, the probability that anyone could dominate them and wield them as a tool strikes me as quite unlikely. If you evidence to the contrary, please let me know.

In short, the TP is primarily about the spending – including lots of angry ex-Republicans and independents who did not like Bush spending and abhor even higher Obama outlays....talk about consistency of principles, instead of party lines. They are not racist or bigoted, some idiots and agents provocateur who slip in notwithstanding. They are in ideological alignment with Koch Bros. (those Bros do not care for the deficit, high taxes or high spending), but no evidence exists of “control” by anyone....and lots of evidence to the contrary if you have ever tried to organize anything with them (I have a modest bit of vicarious experience with that, it's like herding cats). It’s about the spending, attempts by ideological enemies in the press and elsewhere to spin otherwise notwithstanding.

John Hyre

First, let me say I appreciate the manners. They help on difficult topics where emotions run high. It also helps that your actions are consistent with your words....in other words, you are also not implying that I am a bigot, etc. If you find me getting rude to you (as opposed to others who have it coming), please let me know. I would prefer to keep this discussion sharp but civil, and do not wish to be the one who initiates needless nastiness. Of course, I do not expect either of us to pull punches on substance. OK, let’s do this thing.

Very true, I never try to attack the person merely their arguments and believes.

That strikes me as an inaccurate and incendiary statement. For example, Winston Churchill had some of the same beliefs as Hitler, such as “my country should have police force and citizens should pay taxes”. Does that mean that Winston and the Nazi’s are comparable? Of course not. The Tea Partiers and the Taliban do not have anywhere near so much in common as to even begin to justify such a comparison.

Well in the same vein as your logic goes then you must disagree with Newt Gingrich who implied the Obama was similar to a Nazi-Communist. Obama has some pretty terrible policies but to compare him to Hitler is just ignorant and offensive.

Nor do the more religiously inclined TP’s (e.g. Palin, etc) have enough in common with Taliban to merit such a comparison. Are people such as Palin more socially conservative than libertarians & libertines? Sure. So much so that they should be compared to people who have imposed theocratic rule, maimed women (remember that Time magazine cover?) and otherwise forced barbaric sharia customs on Afghanistan? Come on.

You've take my comparison to far, I've merely stated that some of the Tea Party faithful have overlapping views on abortion, homosexuality and on how prevalent religion should be in society. What I fear though is that the outcome will be the same, as you say the Taliban kills to get their way and no I don't see the Tea Party heading out with AK's and machetes to enforce their view point. They will instead try and use the legal system to achieve their goals.

I do detect a certain “I don’t want them Christians imposing their values on me” train of thought, one that you made pretty explicit in “What They Think” thread. I suppose in the abstract the libertarian in me could agree with it, if I thought it were really a danger. But in reality, the Christians in the US & Europe are neither inclined (excepting the stereotypical redneck “you will burn in hell” screamer, who constitute a small minority of Christians, though the press & left try hard to stereotype otherwise) nor able to do such a thing. Very much the opposite. The “values” being pushed in the schools, universities, press, movies & courts are almost uniformly from the left, and largely the antithesis of traditional Christian mores. Tell me, do you object to the left pushing its values via the schools, etc, as well? With a few exceptions, I am not very interested in having any particular set of values pushed via the schools, etc....though if I had to choose a set to push/have pushed on me, I’d take traditional Christian (distinct from fringe “screamer” Christianity) over left/politically correct any day.

You're right, I'm no fan Christian values nor any other religions values on the whole. I strongly believe that religion is incompatible with democracy and free society. For the purpose of this discussion, I will focus on Christian values since they are the relevant ones. Starting with Abortion, this should be an enshrined right for all U.S. citizens, what is the point of being forced to bring an unwanted child into this World? Next Homosexuals, should be given all the same rights as heterosexuals. Let them get married and adopt children or use a surrogate mother. I suspect they wouldn't be able to cause any more harm than plenty of traditionally married people do. I mention these two points because on the whole Christians tend not to be for either of these and this impinges on other humans freedom and rights.

The left can be ludicrously PC and wishy washy, it's a mean world out there and the sooner children figure it out the stronger they will be as adults. I agree schools should be a neutral venue or at least very carefully balanced, children should be encouraged to analysis and critic the information and then form their own opinion. Sadly I believe these skills are not being taught any more and people are growing up taking things at face value.

A media/leftist smear, one that they (NOTE: I did not say or mean "you") use often to avoid argument....remember the “What They Think” thread? Perfect case in point. Lots of direct & indirect name calling from certain quarters, no arguments or discussion at all. I respectfully hope that you will re-evaluate your opinion based on the tainted facts that I think underlie it. While any large movement will have some unsavoury folks in it, the Tea Party seems remarkably free of such influences. See, for example: http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/ ... oy-murdock.

I agree the shrill call of racism or bigot is often used to prevent the discussion of salient points but then so does accusations of something being an Communist idea or a Nazi one. You have a point that the media does frequently misrepresent people/organizations but this hardly problem limited to the left leaning media. For example have a look at http://thinkprogress.org/2011/04/07/fox-lies-poll-republicans/ (no doubt a liberal website but it was the first one that popped up on google).

Yes, that’s from conservative National Review – if they have misrepresented facts, you will doubtless show me. Of course, TP has to be very, very careful....one idiot yelling a vile word on camera, and the whole movement immediately gets tarred, unlike, for example, the Democrat Party, whose late, very senior and long-serving Senator Robert Byrd was undisputedly high up in the KKK, see Wikipedia and the accompanying apologia....helps to have friends in the press, hmmm?

I'm not going to argue with the factuality of the article but I suspect the I'm going to land myself in it when I say the writer sounds somewhat Uncle Tom-ish. The article doesn't prove that the Tea Party is paragon of racial equality but then as you're other link fairly points out black Americans probably on the whole aren't ever going to be supporters of Tea Party.

A racist Democrat, no, never, it can't be, I'm shocked. Next you'll be giving me examples of gay Republicans.

Here’s a nice little chat I googled: http://www.theamericanright.com/forums/ ... 0&p=176106
See especially ABC news link. Yes, it’s a conservative blog. If you see any factual misrepresentations, please bring them to my attention. Basically: Every large movement has nutjobs who show up, that’s not what the movement is about, unless you have enough nutjobs, in which case they are the movement. In the case of TP, they bend over backwards to screen out the freaks.

Yes there are crazy people on all sides of the political spectrum and guess what the parties do there best to hide them. The Tea Party leaders aren't stupid, just like the Democrats and the Republicans they know about good PR. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there. Truth be told I don't think the Tea Party will ever become a major force in US politics, mainly because they will never be able to distance themselves from the racists (mainly because of the media) and they will struggle to find a presentable face to lead them. If they think Christine O'Donnell was a good candidate or Sarah Palin to be electable, then they need to have a long sit down and think.

I do not have a sinister view of George Soros either.

Hmm, I find him quite sinister, anyone that can nearly bankrupt an country to make a quick buck needs watching.

Given how grass-roots, spontaneous and chaotic the TP is, the probability that anyone could dominate them and wield them as a tool strikes me as quite unlikely. If you evidence to the contrary, please let me know.

But they are not spontaneous and chaotic any more, maybe at the start they were but now they are forming a much more organised unit. Also as I mentioned earlier in this thread that until money is removed from politics completely that politicians will remain the tools of big business.

Spang makes an astute observation that religious doctrine is incompatible with democracy and personal freedom. IMHO, the fundamentalist doctrines of the Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism) present a very serious threat to the stability of secular governments worldwide ... at most risk is the US.

Interestingly, research polls indicate that countries with high per capita incomes have a lower percentage of people who say that religion is important in their everyday lives whereas countries with low per capita incomes reflect an inverse relationship. Unfortunately, the US bucks this trend as 65% of people polled say that religion is important in their everyday lives ... alas, the accelerating 'dumbing down' effect in the US may be irreversible.

john wrote:Spang makes an astute observation that religious doctrine is incompatible with democracy and personal freedom. IMHO, the fundamentalist doctrines of the Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Islam, Judaism) present a very serious threat to the stability of secular governments worldwide ... at most risk is the US.

Interestingly, research polls indicate that countries with high per capita incomes have a lower percentage of people who say that religion is important in their everyday lives whereas countries with low per capita incomes reflect an inverse relationship. Unfortunately, the US bucks this trend as 65% of people polled say that religion is important in their everyday lives ... alas, the accelerating 'dumbing down' effect in the US may be irreversible.

I'll take Spirituality (or Religion), over your dribble (or Arrogant Bullshit) anyday.

seawolf,

You are at liberty to take whatever flavour cool-aid you like. Have a nice day.