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Planned Soviet raid on Chile, 1973

Anything at all (keep it clean) goes here that does not fit in to any of the other forums.

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Re: Planned Soviet raid on Chile, 1973

Postby patagoniax on Tue Jul 27, 2010 4:32 pm

joru wrote:.... the links between the Soviets and the early environmentalist movement are disturbing, all the more so considering the advance and direction that movement has made in influencing the Western world.


Probably off-topic here but an interesting point. It is almost axiomatic that empires seek harm through economic disadvantage to their adversaries, so sub rosa support for economic hobbling of competitors is not inconceivable. Or it could be that radical environmentalism is sufficiently a home-grown cultural effect that external support by economic rivals isn't even required.

I haven't seen anything reliable to support your suspicions but if you find something please to pass it along. We might be viewed as hijacking a thread and have to move the discussion, though.
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Re: Planned Soviet raid on Chile, 1973

Postby JHyre on Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:39 pm

Commie Greenies? Not at all surprising. The vast majority of hard-core greenies are also very left on the political spectrum where non-green issues (to the extent that they recognize any issue as not touching on Mama Gaia) are concerned. Talk to 10 German Greens in re non-green issues and you'll rapidly confirm what I say is so. Which beloved/reviled radio commentator refers to greens as watermelons - green on the outside, red on the inside? Given that the Hard Green answer to everything is more state control of nasty polluting people, leftie political direction is predictable. Ironic given the Soviets' awful environmental record, but what sort of impediment are mere worldly facts to a True Believer?

Also, I think that the worldview that would make one a leftist also easily leads to extreme green. Similarly, most of the people who sympathized with the Soviets during the Cold War (Stalin's Useful Idiots) now sympathize with Palestinian fanatics, Hezbollah, etc. Support atheists one minute and religious fanatics the next - no problem, as long as they hate You-Know-Who.

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Re: Planned Soviet raid on Chile, 1973

Postby joru on Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:19 pm

I'm at a disadvantage because this is not my speciality and my library and files are boxed up in storage while I wait for the house to sell, but if I recall, the evidence comes from Stasi archives and describes how the West German environmentalist movement was under direct MfS control. I don't think that this was well (or at all?) reported in the West in English (the original sources are auf Deutsch, some maybe in Russian?), and was buried or otherwise suppressed because it implicated influential members of the then Schröder government as being Stasi assets (or maybe they had already been passed up the chain) or under the influence of such assets. I think that this was a more recent review in English (~2 years) of a book in German (before 2005 I'm assuming). This is in line with other well-known manipulation of the German Left such as Kurras being an MfS asset.

The interesting bit in the book is that the movement was founded, not just supported, by MfS. I believe that this explains the pacifism inherent in most Green ideologies (with the exception of Eco-terrorists), because the initial effort was not just meant to compromise the industrial base but also the will to resist. There is no reason for environmentalism and pacifism to be inextricably intertwined. Consider the noble savage at peace with nature but at war with his neighbor, &c. And here I define pacifism not as being peaceful (a worthy goal), but as depriving oneself of the capacity to defend oneself.

This part is clearly off-topic, but perhaps tort abuse was the Soviets preferred method for hobbling the US economy, while the rise of environmentalism was a preparation for the fall and laying the groundwork for a new beginning.
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Re: Planned Soviet raid on Chile, 1973

Postby joru on Thu Jul 29, 2010 2:05 am

I'm pretty sure that I read the review in a original copy gray lit journal. I base this on my recollection of the paper weight, which I find useful for categorizing sources I have read. The review was in English but if you read German you may be able to find reference to the book online. I looked online for anything obvious related to this and there are the usual conspiracy theories, too many for a general search to be useful in the time I'm allotting this, but it was interesting to learn that Gorbachev founded Green Cross International. One day the house will sell and I'll be reunited with my library and the review, and I will hook you up.

I read the lecture last night and that was interesting. Do you know if Leonov had seen the questions before his lecture, or if he had spoken extemporaneously? I wonder if he would have responded differently with advance notice, if he had spoken thus. Do you have a copy of his memoirs?
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Re: Planned Soviet raid on Chile, 1973

Postby patagoniax on Thu Jul 29, 2010 11:16 am

joru wrote:I'm pretty sure that I read the review in a original copy gray lit journal. I base this on my recollection of the paper weight, which I find useful for categorizing sources I have read. The review was in English but if you read German you may be able to find reference to the book online. I looked online for anything obvious related to this and there are the usual conspiracy theories, too many for a general search to be useful in the time I'm allotting this, but it was interesting to learn that Gorbachev founded Green Cross International. One day the house will sell and I'll be reunited with my library and the review, and I will hook you up.

I read the lecture last night and that was interesting. Do you know if Leonov had seen the questions before his lecture, or if he had spoken extemporaneously? I wonder if he would have responded differently with advance notice, if he had spoken thus. Do you have a copy of his memoirs?


I don't know if Leonov might have received the conference questions before arriving. Perhaps someone at CEP could answer that.

As far as Leonov's memoirs, the book doesn't seem to be available in Chile (surprise). So I don't have a copy, and have only read selected excerpts. But there does seem to be a lot of enlightening material there.

I seem to recall reading that current Russian Federation prime minister Putin was a subordinate of Leonov at one time but I don't know the details, and perhaps the Leonov memoirs will cast some light. Leonov has not been kind in his assessment of Putin's successes in Russia so their relationship must be a curious one. Still, Leonov seems to be quite popular in Russia and won election to the Duma not long ago.

Whatever the past Soviet-Chile issues might have been, there seem to be constructive relations emerging now. Bachelet went to Russia last year and fruit exports to Russia have been growing at a good rate, and there are evidently some additional markets for Chilean fruit in the works for Russia. Chile has ordered five Russian MI-17 helicopters which are considered to have desirable high-altitude capability for rescue and logistical support in cordilllera operations. Twenty years ago the idea of buying any Russian/bloc military equipment would have been unthinkable in Chile.
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Re: Planned Soviet raid on Chile, 1973

Postby greg~judy on Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:24 pm

Here's one for ya patagoniax...
Hot off the press..
Enjoy - we know you might have a relevant comment to offer :)
Chile general convicted in 1974 murders blames CIA

SANTIAGO, Chile — The former chief of Chile's feared secret police who was convicted in the 1974 assassination of Gen. Augusto Pinochet's biggest enemy in exile says the CIA committed the crime.

Chile's supreme court three weeks ago upheld Gen. Manuel Contreras' conviction in plotting the murder of Gen. Carlos Prats, who preceded Pinochet as head of Chile's army. Prats was a close ally of President Salvador Allende, the man Pinochet deposed in a 1973 coup.

Contreras, 81, called Prats his friend and told a hand-picked group of reporters Thursday that Chile's national intelligence agency, which he headed, had nothing to with the killing.

He is serving combined sentences of more than 100 years for murders and kidnappings that took place during the Pinochet years.

"The Prats homicide was the work of the CIA," Contreras said.

The CIA and Peter Kornbluh, director of the National Security Archives' Chile Documentation Project in Washington, both said Contreras is wrong.

"Contreras has always used this bogus explanation that it was the CIA, while the evidence is overwhelming that he, himself, presumably in collusion with Pinochet, was the intellectual author of this crime," said Kornbluh, author of "The Pinochet File: A Declassified Dossier on Atrocity and Accountability."

Contreras said the CIA ordered the bombing because they worried Prats was mounting a government in exile. Prats' wife, Sofia Cuthbert, was killed with him in the car bomb in Buenos Aires, where the two sought refuge after Pinochet seized power.

Richard Helms, then-chief of the CIA, told him that Argentine President Juan Peron had offered to lend Prats half of the Argentine army to help him invade and take over Chile, Contreras said.

"This and related events from nearly 40 years ago have been thoroughly reviewed, dissected, and investigated. It's simply wrong to suggest that the CIA killed Carlos Prats," CIA spokesman George Little said in a statement to The Associated Press.

Kornbluh also dismissed Contreras's claim that Peron offered to help Prats invade Chile, saying there was no documentation to support the statement.

"Manuel Contreras has not said a credible word vis-a-vis his history of international criminality and terrorism ever," Kornbluh said. "He was the intellectual author of some of the most heinous crimes inside Chile and abroad, and, as the pathological killer that he his, he refuses to own up to any of the crimes for which he has been convicted."

Contreras said he was proud of his work with the national intelligence agency, which has been characterized by the Chilean supreme court as an illicit terrorist association.

He has been in prison since 1995, when he was sentenced for the 1976 car bombing that killed Chile's former Foreign Minister Orlando Letelier and his assistant, Ronni Moffit, in Washington D.C.

Despite upholding Contrera's conviction in the Prats case, the Supreme Court reduced his sentence on July 8 from two consecutive life prison terms to 17 years. Michael Townley, the agent who placed the bomb that killed Prats and his wife, lives as a protected witness in the U.S.
Last edited by greg~judy on Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Planned Soviet raid on Chile, 1973

Postby patagoniax on Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:31 pm

greg~judy wrote:Here's one for ya patagoniax...
Hot off the press..
Enjoy - we know you might have a relavant comment to offer :)
Chile general convicted in 1974 murders blames CIA

SANTIAGO, Chile — The former chief of Chile's feared secret police who was convicted in the 1974 assassination of Gen. Augusto Pinochet's biggest enemy in exile says the CIA committed the crime.


I seem to recall reading this on a Wikileaks article. True?

The Peter Kornbluh book covered most of this also. And now it's on the wire services.

Most of what is in that article has been in open press for quite some time. Here are some of the sources released under FOIA and declassified long ago http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSA ... 761008.pdf http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSA ... 761008.pdf - there are too many separate pages to list but you can search under the keywords for the applicable FOIA documents. They are available either via CIA or history/news archive sources. For CIA FOIA go here http://www.foia.cia.gov/search.asp
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Re: Planned Soviet raid on Chile, 1973

Postby joru on Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:04 pm

Yes, I read about Leonov's relationship with Putin in Wikipedia. I was wondering if Putin was the strong man that Leonov would like to have put Russia back on track, but if he has been openly critical.... I would have to think on this.

For anyone who finds this thread, there is another PDF file, translated in English, of an interview with Leonov that expands upon the questions asked of him during the previous day's lecture.
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