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Re: Planned Soviet raid on Chile, 1973

Postby patagoniax » Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:11 am

PanAmerican wrote: .

The link you quoted is Wikipedia? Didn't you just say that you edited that link? Must be true.


No, different page. My question to you is do you have some insight that the US embassy in Chile was in fact not involved in the prisoner exchange involving Russian dissident Bukovsky and Chilean communist party chief Luis Corvalán? Forum-wise, we are trying to shed some light on Chilean history here and if you have some evidence that this exchange did not take place and that it did not involve US cooperation, then please give us some idea of what your sources would be for that belief.

How about the Time magazine report on the issue that described the US role in this? Is that all a pack of lies in your mind?

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 64,00.html
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Re: Planned Soviet raid on Chile, 1973

Postby patagoniax » Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:54 pm

Whether or not one is disposed to believe in continued Soviet participation in post-1973 Chile may well be a matter or personal orientation and interest. Following the 1973 golpe, the Left unsurprisingly denied that there was covert Soviet and Cuban aid to pro-Marxist guerrillas operating in Chile. However, details of Soviet support for Chilean Marxists has been publically admitted by former officials of the former Soviet Union. So let us simply say that a substantial amount of open source material has been published, including transcripts of relevant Politburo proceedings. For those who may wish to decide for themselves, here is another title that covers both pre- and post-golpe Soviet relations with Chile.

The Mitrokhin Archive II: The KGB and the World Author Christopher Andrew is Professor of Modern and Contemporary History and Chair of the Faculty of History at Cambridge University. Vasili Mitrokhin was a former senior officer of the Soviet Foreign Intelligence service whose career spanned the period between 1948 and 1984. He defected to the United Kingdom in 1992.
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Re: Planned Soviet raid on Chile, 1973

Postby JHyre » Tue Jul 20, 2010 2:05 pm

Facts don't matter none to PanAmerican. What he don't want to believe, he ain't gonna believe. America is bad. Print anything in that direction, and he'll eat it right up, yummy, yummy for my tummy-tummy. If it don't fit his worldview, in and out it goes. Simple. Any fact you do not like, deny. "Poof", no more fact.

Anyone who has even an amateur's knowledge of Soviet practices and doings would not be at all surprised by what you have posted. Could be straight out of defector "Victor Suvorov's" books.

Oh, wait, the Soviets were the good guys. KGB & GRU would never ever plan, much less do, what you have suggested. Only CIA interferes outside of its country, and that poorly. My Bad.

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Re: Planned Soviet raid on Chile, 1973

Postby Stoph » Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:54 am

Thanks for posting this info. I didn't know any of this about the Soviets' interest in Chile, or the prisoner exchange. I'd like to know more about it. Excellent contribution, and a great forum.
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Re: Planned Soviet raid on Chile, 1973

Postby fraggle092 » Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:23 am

Stoph
Here's an article from the London Times archive you may find interesting.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article568154.ece
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Re: Planned Soviet raid on Chile, 1973

Postby JHyre » Thu Jul 22, 2010 9:51 am

Nice article, fraggle, strikes me as accurate.

Pan American will likely agree with the parts about Nixon and Allende being a brave, non-violent soul. The rest would of course be rubbish designed to justify CIA involvement. Figured I'd save him the time of a post.

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Re: Planned Soviet raid on Chile, 1973

Postby El pescado » Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:41 am

Corvalan bought the farm yesterday, age 94.
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Re: Planned Soviet raid on Chile, 1973

Postby patagoniax » Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:33 pm

fraggle092 wrote:Stoph
Here's an article from the London Times archive you may find interesting.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article568154.ece


That article provides an interesting segue into some other aspects of the history of those times. The article cites thus:


The first attempt to overthrow the regime was made by activists of the extreme right-wing Patria y Libertad movement. The Santiago residency informed the centre that it had obtained intelligence on plans for the coup and warned Allende. On June 28, however, three combat groups of tanks and armoured cars with about 100 troops left their barracks and headed for the centre of Santiago. The coup petered out in farce.

This early attempt that is mentioned is known to chilenos as the Tanquetazo. There is an English-language summary here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanquetazo

The summary mentions LTC Souper (Roberto Federico Souper Onfray) as the leader of the Tanquetazo.

For anyone interested in sources there is an early US report on this in U.S. Embassy Santiago Cable 4728 to State Department, "Attempt Coup," 29 June 1973, (declassified - previously Confidential)
Last edited by patagoniax on Thu Sep 16, 2010 6:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Planned Soviet raid on Chile, 1973

Postby patagoniax » Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:02 pm

El pescado wrote:Corvalan bought the farm yesterday, age 94.


Good catch. He was actually 93 when he died, but that is a nit. And El Mercurio is giving him a lot of coverage.

http://diario.elmercurio.cl/2010/07/22/ ... 193763.htm

The articles note that Corvalán, who was traded to the Soviets in 1976 for Russian dissident Bukovsky, decided to return to Chile secretly in 1983 (CNN seems to think it was 1988; wikipedia likewise is in error on this point). His return was facilitated by plastic surgery, and his new face was on a falsified passport arranged by the Soviets.

Corvalán was an important communist figure in the Soviet Union and its satellites, and considerable efforts were made to free him from prison in Chile during the military regime. The Soviets awarded him the Lenin Peace Prize. The Carter administration assisted the Soviets in arranging his release. Corvalán even appeared on an East German postage stamp. Here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... C3%A1n.jpg

The dissident Bukovsky, for whom Corvalán was exchanged, was given access to archives of the former Soviet union after the USSR was dissolved. Boris Yeltsin personally approved Bukovsky's access to the Soviet-era archives in 1992. The material discovered by Bukovsky has provided valuable insights into Soviet-Chile relationships. Some of this material has substantiated the earlier claims that the Soviets and Soviet bloc provided aid and support for the MIR and other Marxist guerrilla operations in Chile after the September 1973 golpe that brought the military regime to Chile. Unfortunately, the window into former Soviet/bloc participation in Chilean internal affairs was abruptly closed when Vladimir Putin came to power.

Bukovsky's books are available in English. They shed light on recent Chilean and Soviet history. One of his books is To Build a Castle-My Life As a Dissenter and The Peace Movement and the Soviet Union . Bukovsky also co-authored a book, Allegations, with Alexander Litvinenko. Litvinenko was then murdered in London in 2006 as a result of what is believed to be an order from Vladimir Putin. The death of Litvinenko received worldwide coverage after British authorities revealed that the cause was poisoning by radioactive polonium-210.
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Re: Planned Soviet raid on Chile, 1973

Postby admin » Thu Jul 22, 2010 4:54 pm

I take this all with a grain of salt.

Any competent military, with the resources, keeps a set of plans on the shelf for everything imaginable (wars tend to start over what they forgot to plan for). I bet the Pentagon has a dusty set of counter plans to these plans and the soviets had a counter set to those plans.
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Re: Planned Soviet raid on Chile, 1973

Postby JHyre » Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:09 pm

Admin,

I was wondering when someone would notice. It was much more fun to watch people get excited, spoilsport.

Here's some plans that the Pentagon may have for a pullout:

An interesting letter in the Australian Shooter Magazine this week, which I quote:

"If you consider that there has been an average of 160,000 troops in the Iraq theater of operations during the past 22 months, and a total of 2112 deaths, that gives a firearm death rate of 60 per 100,000 soldiers. The firearm death rate in Washington, DC is 80.6 per 100,000 for the same period. ...That means you are about 25 percent more likely to be shot and killed in the U.S. capital, which has some of the strictest gun control laws in the U.S., than you are in Iraq.

Conclusion: The U.S. should pull out of Washington."

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Re: Planned Soviet raid on Chile, 1973

Postby greg~judy » Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:47 pm

"If you consider that there has been an average of 160,000 troops in the Iraq theater of operations during the past 22 months, and a total of 2112 deaths, that gives a firearm death rate of 60 per 100,000 soldiers.

Off topic, of course... but we like to play that game too :)
JH... methinks somebody in Oz is mathematically challenged?
60:100,000 = 96:160,000
Hmmm... 96 deaths?
What's that 2112 death figure?
What 22 month period?
Who screwed up the time-frame?
When was this published?
Somebody's statistics got a bit twisted - context please?

Mayhaps too many "shooters" of rum with their tinnies, before writing that article :roll:
Reporting (at least that one sentence) immediately challenges the Ozzies credibility, and/or intelligence?

BTW... don't doubt in the least, the 80:100,000 in DC - nice place not to live.
And g~j DO heartily concur with your conclusion...
"The U.S. should pull out of Washington." :lol:
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