Au....eh?

Wot's Au?
5
10%
Baaahhh, fool... I'm a Paper Bug.
1
2%
Never seen/held/touched Au.
2
4%
My friend has some (I touched it)
1
2%
I got drunk on Goldwasser once!!!
2
4%
Got some jewelery, bro' --> (24k, 22k, 20k, 18k, 14k)
2
4%
My significant other has LOTS of bling-bling
3
6%
Got physical - but just a few grams/ozs
4
8%
Got physical - a nice pile of ozs
4
8%
I just buy kgs... go big or go home
0
No votes
Yo, I gonna get me dat Golden Goose!
1
2%
I like gaming w/ Big Boyz at the Sr. mining casinos
2
4%
I get down/dirty at the Jr. mining casinos
4
8%
Who needs them, I have shares in Gato &120.
4
8%
Au will be much more in fiat (choose yours?) at year-end (target?)
12
24%
Au will be much less in fiat (choose yours?) at year-end (target?)
3
6%
 
Total votes : 50

Re: Au; why less precious?

Postby Hackswell » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:29 pm

Andres wrote:
Another Joe wrote:Gotcha covered. In a word, manipulation.

It is helpful to know gold, silver and other prices are being manipulated . . . which some would be too blind or stupid to see or acknowledge . . . but the much more helpful questions to answer would be "who is doing the manipulation?" and "why are they manipulating?".
Any ideas anyone?


Ted Butler has been studying this for _twenty_ years, and fighting the manipulation. It's the concentrated naked short sellers, according to the facts he has unearthed. JPMorgan/Chase being the biggest offender. Why? Why can't be discerned until someone goes to trial and warrants served, unfortunately. Anything else is speculation or conspiracy theory. (Until proven true or false, of course).

http://www.investmentrarities.com/ted_butler_comentary09-14-10.shtml
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Re: Au; why less precious?

Postby Another Joe » Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:21 pm

Andres wrote:
Another Joe wrote:Gotcha covered. In a word, manipulation.
but the much more helpful questions to answer would be "who is doing the manipulation?" and "why are they manipulating?".
Any ideas anyone?


This has been addressed here pretty well, so not much I can add. The mass sellers in the markets were clearly central bankers. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear.

For more information, you could spend several days reading the documentation at gata.org. Gold and silver charts, with commentary, are made available daily by Ed Steer. You could track it yourself, but I find it easier to just wait for his comments, which come out early every morning.

As for why? There's a lot of history involved and it really does come down to conspiracies, much of which remains theoretical. Gold is an independent source of wealth that cannot be eradicated. It allows freedom from the controls that fiat currencies offer. Control the currency and you control the masses. There are variations on the idea, but they all basically follow the same sort of reasoning, as eu noted.
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Re: Au; why less precious?

Postby greg~judy » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:01 pm

Another Joe wrote:...
Gold is an independent source of wealth that cannot be eradicated. It allows freedom from the controls that fiat currencies offer. Control the currency and you control the masses. There are variations on the idea, but they all basically follow the same sort of reasoning, as eu noted.


and to elaborate a bit more, one pundit comments...

<in part...>

Why Gold and Silver are Collapsing

Gold is down more than $300 or roughly 16% in the past few weeks. Silver has lost nearly 40% in the same time period and the mining companies have also been hit hard. This decline in precious metals has been driven by funds scrambling for liquidity, the CME hiking margin rates and a stronger U.S. dollar. Many also suspect that the banks helped to manipulate the price lower in order to cover as many of their underwater short positions as possible. JPMorgan and their cohorts control the paper markets and can use their leverage to manipulate the spot price to whatever level they want in the short term. This is done via “stuffing” trades and using a variety of other methods to make the markets believe that there is considerably more selling pressure than actually exists. This is particularly profitable as options expiration is this week and the current smack down will leave most options expiring worthless, in addition to providing an opportunity to exit short positions.

But despite the apparent manipulation, JPMorgan has been woefully unsuccessful at suppressing the price in the long term. After all, gold is still up 25% and silver 40% in the past 12 months!

Parting Shot

Investors have to determine whether we are entering a new deflationary chapter that will result in a prolonged period of depressed prices for gold and silver, or whether this is another short-term correction and buying opportunity. While I am usually quick to view these dips as excellent buying opportunities, any number of events could push the global economic system over the edge. In such a scenario, investors will likely continue to dump precious metals and mining shares, throwing out the baby with the bathwater in a panic. But the monetary metals are likely to bounce back quickly and the downside risk at this point seems rather limited.

If the market does not fall apart quite yet and the Bernank decides to announce another massive stimulus, gold and silver are going to spike to new highs in no time. This is the scenario that most investors have been waiting for, although the electorate has lost their appetite for such bailouts and the political will has all but dried up. Still, more QE and bank bailouts will be necessary to avoid financial collapse in the short term, so my bet is that we will continue to see quantitative easing, even if it isn’t announced officially by such a name.

No matter how our central economic planners decide to deal with this ticking time bomb, I’d rather be holding gold and silver than any other asset class. They have been money for thousands of years, have held their purchasing power under a variety of adverse conditions and have proven to be an effective safe haven asset.
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Re: Au, my preciousssss...

Postby Another Joe » Wed Sep 28, 2011 8:50 am

Russell always has something to say, but is actually worth listening to as well.
With extreme volatility across markets globally, including gold and silver, here are some key points the Godfather of newsletter writers, Richard Russell, wrote about in last couple of commentaries, “Gold -- Here we have a pattern breaking down but gold is still trading ABOVE its 200-day moving average. I think a lot of gold has been sold to cover losses and margin calls. MACD is deeply oversold, and RSI is becoming oversold. That should slow the decline in gold. The big picture that is affecting everything is massive world debt, de-leveraging, and nobody knows how or can agree on halting deflation.”

http://kingworldnews.com/kingworldnews/ ... _Fiat.html
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Re: Gold Stupidity...

Postby greg~judy » Thu Sep 29, 2011 12:55 am

this is just too good not to share...!
g~j almost choked on our cabernet...
we wonder who wrote the script...?
young bridgette, the cutie~canuk "financial reporter"(???), obviously didn't...
at 20 sec. - she "quoted" -Todd Hirsch - "Alberta's Foremost Economist".
http://www.toddhirsch.com/
maybe Todd must be significantly stupider than her?
but, wow, she spouted~spewed it with such sincerity~authority...
and ya know - the sad thing is...
there are probably folks out in ctv~landia who actually believe her!
jeez... all the time we were thinking am'urk'ns were credulous as hell...
now it seems we have much to doubt - about g~'s fellow canukistanians?
:|

In this video, a reporter tells the anchor that gold has moved down in part because people may be getting suspicious of the yellow metal since it isn't "backed" by anything. She then goes on to explain that US Treasuries and the dollar itself are backed by the United States government and by the industry and manufacturing efforts of the entire American people. Therefore, the US dollar and Treasuries are a good deal safer than gold (or silver, presumably).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWyrjwXoIqA&feature=player_embedded
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Re: Au, my preciousssss...

Postby Another Joe » Thu Sep 29, 2011 1:22 am

Oh my...

Now, this can't be real. It's gotta be a spoof. Onion, as the one comment asked? The Yes Men? College prank? Even Keynes couldn't have come up with that (at least not with a straight face).

Regardless, gonna have to spread this one around after I decide whether to laugh or cry.
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Re: Au, my preciousssss...

Postby Ripsigg » Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:32 am

If that reporter is saying the truth then I am scared, very scared. Why? If the dollar is backed by the American people then it's a hop skip and jump from total destruction. Joe Harvey and Joe Bloggs are unemployed whiners who just want another handout and are proud they voted for Obama, hardly reassuring. I'd rather have a currency NOT backed by them.
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Re: Au - manipulation...?

Postby greg~judy » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:56 am

Andres wrote:
Another Joe wrote:Gotcha covered. In a word, manipulation.

It is helpful to know gold, silver and other prices are being manipulated . . . which some would be too blind or stupid to see or acknowledge . . . but the much more helpful questions to answer would be "who is doing the manipulation?" and "why are they manipulating?".
Any ideas anyone?


GATA has chimed in with their (usual) good analysis...
now, take yer pick...?
door #1, #2, or #3...?
:idea:

How central banks might have smashed gold and silver down
2011-09-28
Dear Friend of GATA and Gold:

...Patrick A. Heller of Liberty Coin Service in Michigan speculates on the possible mechanisms of central bank market manipulation that sent gold and silver prices plunging just as the eurozone was about to break down.

"First, it is entirely possible that European central banks of nations in the eurozone could be liquidating some of their gold reserves as a desperate move to beef up their fiat currency reserves to stave off default on their debts. If this is happening to any degree, that could help explain the why short-term gold and silver lease rates have recently turned negative.

"Second, it is possible that the U.S. government may have informed the Chinese government in advance that is was preparing a major intervention to suppress gold and silver prices and asked the Chinese to refrain from jumping in to purchase physical metals until the market had been pushed near the bottom.

"Last week a longtime reliable source told me that there were massive quantities of Asian buy orders placed in the London market to execute if spot prices dropped to $1,760 all the way down to $1,715. I have every reason to believe that at least a sizable percentage of these buy orders may be have placed by the Chinese government as this would be consistent with their trading activity since 2003. If the Chinese were alerted that they could have the opportunity to purchase gold even cheaper than their standing buy orders, it would be reasonable for them to cooperate by putting their buy orders prices in the $1,700s.

"Third, it is possible that the U.S. government may have directly intervened in suppressing prices, through one or more agencies that are not drawing close scrutiny from Congress or the public. The prime suspect would be the Exchange Stabilization Fund, which was established in 1934. The ESF is an emergency reserve, not subject to congressional oversight, normally used to intervene (manipulate) in foreign exchange markets. In 1970 its mandate was changed by Congress to allow the secretary of the treasury, with the approval of the president, to use funds in the ESF to 'deal in gold, foreign exchange, and other instruments of credit and securities." Thus it would be possible and legal for the U.S. government to surreptitiously manipulate the gold market. The reason I consider this to be a plausible reason that gold and silver prices were suppressed is that the major beneficiaries of lower prices would be the U.S. government, its trading partners, and allies."
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Re: Au, my preciousssss...

Postby Another Joe » Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:55 am

There is lots of talk in the various blogrags and newsletters about this. Some are in denial, though most see some sort of manipulation. And it could have been a combination of factors working together once the trigger was pulled. The lemmings are fearfully watching the market for any move in order to sell, buy or whatever. The gold market is really quite small, so manipulation isn't very difficult for world players. It happens on the larger scale all the time. One trick is to cause a sudden dip in a particular stock, or sector, in order to trigger trailing stops. By doing so a company can gobble up a bunch of stock at a nice discount, either to keep or sell a few weeks later for a nice 10-25% profit. It's illegal, but that's not necessarily a deterrent.

One commentator said that this recent drop seemed to be a statement, in some ways, from the world movers and shakers that they can do what they want with the markets, so don't get too comfortable. It did serve to shake lose those who simply joined the gold hay ride without understanding the underlying fundamentals. For those who own and know why they own, it was merely a hickup. Gold is still up this year and appears to have a very bright future (pun intended).
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Re: Au; why less precious?

Postby Red » Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:46 pm

Andres wrote:
Another Joe wrote:Gotcha covered. In a word, manipulation.

It is helpful to know gold, silver and other prices are being manipulated . . . which some would be too blind or stupid to see or acknowledge . . . but the much more helpful questions to answer would be "who is doing the manipulation?" and "why are they manipulating?".
Any ideas anyone?


Why does it matter if it's being manipulated or who does the manipulating? If you can't do anything about it, why would it matter?

For those who own and know why they own, it was merely a hickup
"For those who own it and know why they own..."; are there various groups within the Au community with different views of the metal? Surely if someone "knows" why they own it (or trade it), can they truly be considered adversely affected by "manipulation"? Why on earth would anyone stay in any relationship in which they are being openly and brazenly manipulated?

Before I get accused of being blind or stupid, consider abandoning your current bearing and shifting 30, 60, 90, or 180 degrees- whatever it takes to see this more clearly. Otherwise, when this particular market finally gets to wherever it's going, you won't necessarily be there to benefit. It's a bit like the futility of the left/right, blue/red, liberal/conservative silliness: it just keeps you looking in the wrong direction.

Alas, has there ever been a time when money has not been manipulated?
"Don't believe them; don't fear them; don't ask anything of them"
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Re: Au, my preciousssss...

Postby Red » Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:50 pm

eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:Better yet, if you can't take the heat of wide price swings and sleep at night, then you have no business speculating and investing in the precious metals.

I hear stocks, bonds and developed world real estate are ultra safe though. :mrgreen:


"Taking the heat" can perhaps be loosely interpreted as "knowing" why you're in an investment (and "investment" itself is up for differing interpretations, as well).

By the time this crisis passes, I think traders and speculators will disappear to a great extent and revert to a much lower level of activity more reminiscent of the distant past. The current orgy of activity is unsustainable.

Investing, speculating, ultra-safe, even precious metals: they are all open to interpretation as to what they are and what they mean. The crisis is forcing new definitions all the time; I think it's approaching the time when even the supposed forward-thinking bloggers, advisers and pundits are left behind by fast-moving events. At any rate, focusing on the irrelevant won't be helpful.
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Re: Au, my preciousssss...

Postby Another Joe » Thu Sep 29, 2011 6:48 pm

Red,

As for knowing it's manipulated - It's helpful to understand because it can't last forever. It also helps to understand why underlying fundamentals sometimes seem to be cast to the wind. Free-markets work a certain way, and gold doesn't follow that "way." It does to an extent, but is not allowed to move freely. Knowing that helps to ascertain how one views movements in the market.

Those who "know why they own" metals are those who have studied the fundamentals and understand the difference between money and currency. Some can't articulate it like that, but they have a grasp of the difference. Many, who don't really know why they own, do so with a view towards metals as merely another commodity, rather than true money. And yet others simply see it as an investment, hoping to exchange them for more federal promises. If you understand metals to be money (gold specifically, silver too and others to a lesser extent) then you're not shaken when you can buy less dollars with it. But if you think of dollars as money (by definition they're not), then you tend to freak when the markets move.

Investors who buy gold and silver for profits don't really know why they own it. They might have some good reasons, but since they don't understand it to be money, they can't really understand why they have it. However, some of them still pull off some great profits. Many of them simply bail out when gold drops, waiting to get back in once it's risen enough to make them really want in again. They buy on greed and sell on fear. It's sort of tongue in cheek to say, "know why they own," but hopefully this is helpful to understand why I'd put it that way.
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