Chile Forum

I've been using 100% private healthcare and education since I've had kids, in Europe and in Chile. Just saying. The only (very occasional) "voluntary" use I've had for the government is courts, cops, and local roads (highways are toll-based and under private concessions in many places outside the US including of course Chile). Note the quotes around "voluntary" since it's not like governments are leaving a choice in the matter re: courts or cops. (I do pay for my private counsel and home security.)

That local roads are paid for through local taxes makes sense since it's impractical to fund them through tolls. In practice I end up cleaning the portion of street in front of my house because the municipality only pays lip service to it. For the rest, if government grants itself monopoly of coercion then it stands to reason that people expect it to do its self-appointed job (e.g. controlling looters) regardless of whether they agree with that monopoly in the first place. If you collect the tax by coercion,then yeah at a minimum do what you said the tax was intended for.

Re: Frank on politization of Chilean building codes, that's a good point. I had long arguments with a guy (a pretty committed troll actually) on the forum at economist.com who insisted that Allende was to be thanked for them (his source: Naomi Klein and a single abstract from a seismic paper). Too bad these norms are actually originating from the private sector and where made compulsory by law long after Allende was dead (it took me hours of research to find the actual norms, how they evolved over time, their relationship to law).

People so excited about the welfare state might want to research why Bismarck set it up in the first place. Welcome to 1883, USA. Is this another nail in the American Experiment? Absolutely, but only one in a long series. Now Americans, who already make pretty disastrous lifestyle choices (see massive adoption of self-inflicted obesity, this is NOT an epidemic), get to share the effects of these bad choices with everyone by law. Keep your elective diabetes out of my healthcare pool, thanks. What is called health insurance is anything but. Insurance is meant to cover unpredictable events, not everyday occurrences. The pharma and insurance companies are thanking the Democrats for bringing them millions of new customers by law. What a travesty of law and of healthcare.

I'm predicting many aging Western nation states will collapse in the next 20 years. Some might split back to the regions they're made of (Italy or Spain come to mind), others will hold together only after drastic reforms done in the worst conditions at the last minute. Demographics will command it, and short of a sudden burst in the birthrate, the events are already set in motion to a very large extent. French public debt when I was 10 years old (28 years ago): about 20% of GDP. French public when I'll be 40: close to 100% of GDP. Same deal in southern Europe countries, same debt explosion in the UK and the USA. This with lower activity rates trending towards a minority of the overall population working. Obvious trainwreck on the way. Add to that massive, poorly-integrated immigration during the last 40 years, and the cards are going to be seriously reshuffled.

Chile, even after the earthquake: food exporter, useful commodity producer, no debt (recovering from the earthquake should be doable without taking a huge future-choking financial burden), young population. Figure out education and we're golden. It can stay where it is now, or become first world, we'll see. But a lot of the current First World is on its way down. This health insurance reform is just a bit of extra oil to grease the rails and speed up towards the trainwreck. I'm curious to see what will happen when ratings agencies (rear-view mirrors that they are) downrank the USA's sovereign debt to AA by the end of the decade. Enjoy spending more on debt service than even on healthcare - that day is coming fast.

As always, enjoying the fireworks


But more seriously some great comments from both sides in this thread. Very nice post Otravers. I need to dig into some history. When I was in high school and college I was very far to the left, by teh time i graduated i was a centrist, and now I feel myself drifting ever more to the right in how I think.

And on another note, who has a copy of Ayn Rand's books in chile to lend me? I never read the Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged. Ive read about her, but not any of her stuff, somehow.

and now, please continue...

And on another note, who has a copy of Ayn Rand's books in chile to lend me? I never read the Fountainhead or Atlas Shrugged. Ive read about her, but not any of her stuff, somehow.

Google them and download the PDF's.

My take is that I am even more motivated to sell and leave the US.

The downward slide is truly accelerating, oblivion awaits.

MikieO wrote:"blah blah blah blah, "For the record, I've lived in the US (two years)... been there, done that, and I couldn't be assed about the T-shirt". blah blah blah blah,blah blah blah blah,blah blah blah blah,blah blah blah blah,(hic!) blah blah blah blah. "And then there's this obscene fascination with guns" blah blah blah blah,blah blah blah blah,blah blah blah blah, oink oink.
I've known so many new age, dreadlocked Paddies over the years, most stay in a place just long enough to get the passport stamped or a drug deal finalized.
Good for you, you lasted 2 years in Little India Ca......Instant expert on the culture (and accent) of the people.
So there's no home schooling in Chile?
THAT was the most interesting thing you wrote about.
These are interesting, innovative people on this forum for the most part, the reason places like Region X appeal is because they want less govt in their lives.
That also might be the root of this RIP USA thread.
But you wouldn't "get" that or want the T shirt, right?

'Mick'
I think this needs quotin' .
Ya know,for posterity 'n all that.

Dagny wrote:Are immigrants from America the only ones the world over not permitted to bring their culture to a new country? Of course Chile is vastly different from the US but that doesn't make it immune to an influx of people who want to make a life there while employing some of the traditions that served them well in their former country. At least the vast majority of 'western' expats pursuing residency in Chile are not landing as a financial burden on the country. It would seem that the influx of dollars from those who embrace Chile and want to integrate into its society is a good thing.

You obviously want to make it easy for me to agree with you, and if by culture you meant, say square-dancing and apple pie, or weissbier and kartoffelknödel, I would. But you don't mean that, do you...? Your question is loaded with "issues".

But thanks for taking a step back to touch on a fundamental point... it certainly makes easier reading than the porcine slobbering further up the page, which isn't worthy of any response ... to what extent does a country expect immigrants to conform to its culture? Which in a way creates a space for those immigrants to bring parts of their cultures with them. In the US you have a ceremony of swearing allegiance... that makes it pretty clear what the expectations are, and anyone immigrating to the US knows this. While most other countries don't quite do it this way, very few of them, including Chile, are unwritten pages, and have a set of cultural values which immigrants are expected to adhere to. After all, it reasonably assumes immigrants found something they liked in Chile, and for that reason want to move there. Conforming to those expectations might be as easy as empanadas and wine, or not owning a gun and sending the kids to school... maybe I missed it, but given that it's not a blank page nor a proxy battleground, did you ever say what you actually liked about the place?

'Mick'
I think this needs quotin' .
Ya know,for posterity 'n all that

Sssshhh!!!!, drool...

Been away for a while, but now living in Costa Rica, perhaps one step closer to Chile.

My only comment is this. It does no good to rant, but rather decide what you as an individual are going to do about it. You as an individual aren't going to change it, unless you are a politician and an insider. So then, play by the new rules, one of which is that the rules are allowed to change without notice.

The bigger issue is summed up in this graph:

http://blog.american.com/wp-content/upl ... /perry.jpg

We now have 25% of Americans earning wages to support themselves and to pay taxes that support the other 75% who either work for governments, or do no work at all. This is not sustainable, and the Obamacare legislation only tips the scales further in the wrong direction.

I came so late, I am not even sure what this thread is about.

Let me bring you up to speed:

America is dead because Tom Hanks is pissed off about the health reform policy, as it means that he has to pay for the Spaghetti Monster's girlfriend's abortion. Problem is, she can't speak English and works for the government and feels entitled to the medical support of her adopted country as she pays taxes, but her extended family who lives in the caravan out back doesn't, which throws a spanner in the works. Tom thinks she should have the baby and home school it. The Allchile members are not sure if the baby will oink or squirt ink, so they're pretty divided on the subject. There's a graph somewhere that explains it better.

Hope that helps.

FrankPintor wrote: Conforming to those expectations might be as easy as empanadas and wine, or not owning a gun and sending the kids to school... maybe I missed it, but given that it's not a blank page nor a proxy battleground, did you ever say what you actually liked about the place?

Ok Frank; what I 'like' about Chile (or why we decided to move to Chile), briefly:

Chile has a stable democracy that is relatively uncorrupted when compared to its neighbors. It's economy has been well managed and indicates a trend towards further growth. It is remote enough to have not been overrun with expats (who inhabit gated communities and limit their interaction with locals to telling the maid which rooms to clean). It is relatively easy for a foreigner to gain residency and benefit from the same protections afforded citizens (enterprise and private property). For nature enthusiasts, the geography offers a nearly unrivaled opportunity.
Because of our situation, we will be able to live well in Chile on less money than in the US. High speed internet will allow me to continue to work remotely. We're extracting ourselves from the rat race that stretches out before us in the US in order to create a home in a stunning slice of country and spend more time on the important things (kids, music, mountains and wine).

As for homeschooling; for the year plus that I've been reading this forum, I've routinely seen mentions of people currently homeschooling in Chile or planning to do so. Charles just posted that it is legal. I think its short-sighted to lump those on this forum who mention homeschooling into the category of those who keep their children at home in order to teach a heavily religious corse load and/or spend lots of time cleaning weapons. If that is what a parent wants to teach, that is their right - but it is a small spectrum of the people actually choosing to school at home. Personally, we have chosen to use the Classical method (or Trivium). There are some private schools in the US who have this as the basis of their curriculum (but none geographically feasible were we to remain in the states). Homeschooling became our choice, not from an original intent to homeschool but from the desire to have our child(ren) educated under rigorous academic principles. Classical teaching is heavily focused on history and language with the aim of instilling the child with the ability to approach life from a reasoned analytical basis. If this school existed in Chile we would have already been on the waiting list, so for now, it falls on us as parents to ensure the best education for our child. (In case you're curious, I read Cattus Petasatus to my three year old at least twice a week and his daddy is teaching him his Greek alphabet).

I'll address your response to my thoughts on immigrant culture soon - right now its time for math class

Tombi wrote:

I came so late, I am not even sure what this thread is about.

Let me bring you up to speed:

America is dead because Tom Hanks is pissed off about the health reform policy, as it means that he has to pay for the Spaghetti Monster's girlfriend's abortion. Problem is, she can't speak English and works for the government and feels entitled to the medical support of her adopted country as she pays taxes, but her extended family who lives in the caravan out back doesn't, which throws a spanner in the works. Tom thinks she should have the baby and home school it. The Allchile members are not sure if the baby will oink or squirt ink, so they're pretty divided on the subject. There's a graph somewhere that explains it better.

Hope that helps.

You missed the T shirts, but other than that, 4 hooves up.