Chile Forum

admin wrote:First, It is kind of reassuring to see the forum slipping back in to a bit of normal political ho hum chewing the fat.

Normality is such a relief. For me, it was yesterday when I found the supermarket down the hill reopened with prices the same (except for the beer) as they were on February 26. Also, no aftershocks thus far today <woops, spoke too soon, another just hit now 12:23 pm>.

All we need now is Rune to get back to posting.

Zenth wrote:I believe if you send a student outside Chile for education, most will not return. It's not 1930's Germany or 1960's Soviet Union; you can't hold the families hostage until they return.
Education has to be improved in Chile.

Well, if education is improved in Chile, by the logic above the graduates will just leave after they qualify anyway... actually Charles' proposal sounds very good, and maybe even do-able for a country with USD11B in the bank and a small population.

Yes, graduates often leave after qualifying, and in basket-case countries they never return... but that's not the case in Chile. European experience (Ireland, Poland, Czech Republic..) suggests that people often do return, with valuable experience and knowledge of different and maybe better ways of doing things.

JHyre wrote:More "just" society means bringing "the rich" down. If everyone had a brand new Honda and one guy had a Mercedes, the class warriors scream "injustice" left and right. The reason half the planet is trying to get into the US is that they want the Honda and a shot at the Mercedes. Many of the places that they are leaving, everyone has the same just share - little or nothing. But hey, those societies are "equal" and that's how the US ought to be. The US success is based on people worrying about how to move up instead of how to rip others down. To the extent that the US is in trouble, it tends to come from "I have no goat, so let's kill yours" type of thinking. How's the 50% of the healthcare system that is already run by the government doing? Lousy, gee, who knew. Solution: Let's screw up the private 50% that is functional, so we'll all be equal.

I'm no Pinera expert, but it sounds like he rejects such inferior thinking. Heck, even Concertacion seemed to have limited how far it took such nonsense. I hope Pinera focuses on making things better for everyone as opposed to some twisted, misery-inducing concept of "justice".

John Hyre, These Guys Never Get It

This "bringing the rich down" stuff is just silly to me. Like the rich should be a protected class. I'm fine with a Honda and I don't want anyone to buy me one-keep your Mercedes, I don't want it.

The US did well in years past because people in general believed they could be successful if they went to university, worked hard, did the right things. Look at the ratio of pay between average chief executive officers and workers in the US-depends on where you read it but it is certainly well over 400-1 now. In the 1960s, 1970s, and 1980s, the compensation ratio between CEOs and ordinary workers oscillated between 30 and 40 to 1. The problem is that when people can't see what they can possibly do to attain the "American Dream", everyone loses (except those at the very top 5-10%). A strong middle class means tax revenue and a more educated population, it means people are hungry to climb that ladder. It means more innovation in science and technology. More wealth equality is not communism. Unconstrained capitalism is all out greed-the catains of industry turned into the robber barons. There are some good old style capitalist reasons to keep it within reason. If you kill the American Dream(on life support now), you kill what was best in the USA. And in Chile, if you wonder about the terrible service etc., keep in mind those people know that no matter what they do, they won't be more than a clerk in Chile. And in the US, I think you're starting to see the same thing.

Pinera gives (at least 53%) of people hope(hope and change lol)-we'll have to see how that goes.

I was out of town for a few days and feel compelled to respond to John Hyre's rebuttal to my post. First, I would like to thank Laura for her usual thoughtful comments in reponse to John's post.

For the record, US standard of living ranks 15th in the world while the US quality of life index places it in 13th place. Since 1975, practically all the gains in US household income have gone to the top 20% of households. To quote Alan Greenspan (a Ayn Rand admirer): "The income gap between the rich and the rest of the US population has become so wide, and is growing so fast, that it might eventually threathen the stability of democratic capitalism itself". A couple of other revealing statistics: 1) US life expectancy lags 42nd in the world (behind Chile) and 2) The US infant mortality rate (6.3 per 1000 live births) is almost twice as high as France and higher than the European Union average.

Moreover, the US health care system is the costliest, most inefficient and least accessable health care system in the Western world ... the only part of it that works reasonably well is Medicare. BTW, US Government controlled health care is less than 30% of the total health care system. That is why it is critical that the Obama health care plan be implemented. If the proposed legislation is enacted it would provide insurance coverage to some 30 million plus Americans who currently lack it. In California, one out of five people (8.2 million) do not have health care insurance ... an increase of 16% from 2009 (mostly as a result of lost coverage due to unemployment).
The non-partisan US Congressional Budget Office (CBO) says the final version of the Democrats' healthcare plan will cut the federal deficit by $138bn over 10 years. Democrats say the total savings over 20 years will be $1.2 trillion but the CBO says it is unable to confirm the Democrat claim. The main point here is that passage of the proposed legislation will begin the process of gaining control over health care costs in the US. Unfortunately, the proposed legislation does not contain a "public" option as that is deemed not doable politically ... IMHO, a government controlled "single payer" health care system must ultimately be implemented.

In summary, Mr. Pinera should be very leary about adapting US economic policies for use in Chile.

I am definitely not going to get involved in sides on this one but here is a view from as much neutrality as I can muster.

1. Government should never have its hand in restricting anyones pay, anyhow, anywhere, it only leads to corruption.
2. Many of us on this board are self-made or self-employed business people, from Docs to Lawyers to Importers, etc., we build our own fortune and lives and I see no need in govt control in this nor would that be fair. If I strive to make a million dollars then I should be able to do it from my own hard work and willingness, it is not my fault that I do and someone else doesnt, this is life, some are fortunate, some are not, some are workers, some are not, this will never change.
3. John- your first paragraph is correct, those are the stats but I believe this lags behind for more reasons than just healthcare, its a style of life we have here that is work focused, fast food focused and less down time than most other countries, this is something I would agree would be nice to change.
4. John- your last paragraph is just a statement of whats been put out by various sources in regards to support of the govt plan, lets be more creative.
1. The govt lies about stats all day long so all bills look good, since when did they ever get an estimate right?
2. Yes healthcare needs reform in the US in many many areas but no one has addressed that specifically in terms of types of plans, access to carriers, pricing reasoning, inflated hospital costs, etc.
3. Many of the decrease in costs from the plan come from 1/2 trillio dollar cut in medicare, I thought we were trying to fix healthcare, not cut those that need it to give to a few more? I dont think the seniors will be happy with that one. Yet, this fact no one knows so I wont uphold it.
4. Can anyone guarantee this will cut costs? Private insurers are already raising rates because of this.
5. where does all of this money come from support a massive system for everyone? It doesnt and never has been done on such a scale effectively, even at state level, so this money factor has to be real, not theorized.

I think like most people we would like to see a real number sometime about now in regards to anything they propose no matter who is in govt, its just all revolving around hearsay and seems to change daily.

Alas, I dont want to get focused on the Obama plan as it wasnt my intention nor do I think it matters here.

As for Pinera, I dont think implementing a structure to push small business is a US economic policy but is rather a policy for all free market countries, small businesses exist and its always good to expand them.
I think with his govt support to promote this that it could drive expansion of employment, especially now during reconstruction and bring in more foreign investment, which I have to say it will. I am working now with CORFO on a project in Chile and they are bending over backwards to get our investment there and for us to build a small business in an area that needs further employment. This is not something new either, it has existed for some time even under the center left for the last 20 years so they knew it was important and a focus that would help the country and employment as the govt cant be and shouldnt be the answer to everything or most things but should rather help facilitate laws that empower people to advance, expand and increase their well-being thus advancing the country.

4heid,

You realize part of Chile's prosperity comes from their universal healthcare? It is mandatory as a percentage is deducted from paychecks. Private insurance companies do very well here and Chile has a very strong government option. Medicare-a huge amount of waste and fraud there. But interesting that arguably the US's biggest "socialist" program you don't want any cuts. I remember seeing a story about an especially fervent protester with a sign "NO GOVT HEALTHCARE! And HANDS OFF MY MEDICARE!" You can't have both statements being correct.

The point was that people should be offered a chance to better themselves-we don't want perfect equality at all-that would be silly. Small business, entrepreneurship is great but US businesses have lost their way. The bigger the better is the norm in the US-then you have "too big to fail". Many smaller companies compete-which is better for everyone. In the US, economies of scale have been popular but bigger is not better for many reasons-like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diseconomy_of_scale

I was reading today about auto rental companies in the US overcharging, getting very expensive. But what was notable is that one "holding company" owns three major rental companies. How is that good capitalism?

Chile has been trying to balance capitalism with regulations and a safety net-call that socialism. As a matter of fact, Bachelet signed about 40 new trade agreements. This means Chile can't be held hostage to one country (like the US). Many things already cheaper. Mr. Pinera shows no signs of taking away the "socialist" programs" -and if he did, I think the left will be back in for another 20 years. I hope he won't embrace "bigger is better" but that would be my fear. He has a pretty good understanding of holding companies-and much of it is in English. But I think what will help the country is that Pinera would like to be immortalized-not just an island or land or wealth-but a statue

But anyone that thinks social programs are socialist, good luck in Chile.

I think it highly ironic that Chile has been called one the 10 "most free" countries (or something like that) but has a better, more universal, more socialist healthcare system than the US seems to be able to muster.

Btw, interesting that some in the US are talking of an IVA tax, similar to Chile but not as much. That sort of tax is fair I think because it is a consumption tax. Buy a $50,000 auto and you pay more tax than someone buying the $10,000 auto. I also like the way they include basic collision insurance in the registration here.

Laura55llc wrote:... I remember seeing a story about an especially fervent protester with a sign "NO GOVT HEALTHCARE! And HANDS OFF MY MEDICARE!" You can't have both statements being correct.

I think this may be the picture you saw - and I have to agree with Laura, if you want the government to leave your medicare alone and you're rabid about not having socialized medicine... well, your platform may not be as strong as you believe....



Most of my insight into Chilean healthcare comes from a friend in the US, a doctor who is currently in the process of obtaining his license in Chile. He related a story to me about discovering the difference in treatment levels, based on a patients ability to pay, between the two countries. In Chile you can pay more to get more perks but in the US everyone is 'entitled' to the same treatment; his specific example was about an outdated anesthesia used for a poor patient in Chile which wouldn't be used on a patient paying more for care. My friend was shocked and told his Chilean counterpart that if he tried to do that in the US he would likely end up in jail.

I don't know enough about the system to comment more than that, but obviously what works one place can't be exactly copied in another. Chile seems to have found a system that functions better than the US, and if thats true, then its just one more reason I'm glad to be heading there.

With that said, here is my little ditty on healthcare in the US:

As a military wife living in the D.C. area, I have access to the very best healthcare that the military can provide and its all free. My prescriptions are free, after waiting for my number to be called (usually 40-60 minutes) I don't pay the government pharmacy a cent. I don't pay anything to make my doctor appointment or see a different lieutenant fresh out of training (almost every time). I don't have to pay to have the pediatrician's nurse to tell me my two year old is a little small and that putting sugar in his oatmeal will help him progress along the growth chart. I didn't have to pay the student who stitched up my c-section and caused an infection that put me in the hospital for 9 days (which I didn't have to pay for). And I absolutely did not have to pay a lawyer to sue for malpractice after botched surgery because YOU CAN'T SUE MILITARY HEALTHCARE.

To be fair, I have met a few excellent doctors and nurses along the way but the majority are undertrained, under-supervised and under motivated to achieve excellence. That is just what happens when you put medical personal into the giant bureaucracy required to give free healthcare to a large population.

I haven't seen a military doctor for almost two years; I pay out of pocket for myself and my son to have a private physician. 'Free' wasn't worth the hassle and risk any longer. And when I say 'out-of-pocket' I mean no insurance, because my previous insurer wouldn't take me back due to my medical history while under military care. Reform? Yes - through CAPITALISM NOT GOVERNMENT MANAGEMENT.

Running a country without some socialism would be a silly idea. Who would build roads, maintain the army etc. Too much socialism drains the resources required for expansion of an economy. There is a real balancing act to allow the best of both to work well.

Worldwide we have allowed governments to set policies which allow the financial sector to rob the real wealth from the populus. This is mainly done by fractional reserve banking, and statism (often misrepresented as crony capatalism). Somehow we have been persuaded that money is wealth which has led to the idea that debt is wealth. This has allowed the real wealth to be drained from the system into the hands of the oligarchs.

The fastest expansion of wealth accumulation in history was accomplished in the USA between the years 1865 to approximatly 1900. Unfortunatly, that coincided with the growth of money trusts and monopolies. The expansion was primarily due to the fact that there were no taxes, and little to no regulation on what businesses could do. Antimonopoly laws were enacted to prevent predatory practices which enabled big business to stiffle creation of competitors.

Today we have once again allowed some industries to form into huge monopolistic enterprises, and face similar problems. Too big to fail banks, Monsanto, drug companies and Walmart come to mind, but there are many others. Regulators have the laws and tools to dismantle these, but corruption is keeping these from being used.

The stock (or share) market was once a good place for someone to get financing for a business, but today it is so manipulated that the big players routinely destroy even going businesses using options and other leverage devices. A small player trying to raise capitol becomes prey to them even before the shares become available for sale. The government entities have been allowed to accumulate huge off balance sheet funds (probably in the amount of 70 trillion dollars or more in the US alone) which is hidden from the public. The amounts are so large that most of the true wealth in the US is in the hands of government.

Another nasty trend gaining favor is government actually competing for business against private individuals. Many state and county governments are running profit making campgrounds, resorts, marinas and other businesses which could and would be provided by private owners. Many times the private owners could not even develop the business where it is because of government regulations. This is a real unfair practice.

Couple this with the governments building such properties as sports stadiums where the team owners make the profits while public coin has built the facility. There are many others.

My hope for Chile is that they create an environment with very low overhead cost, which can provide the infrastructure and protections for business to fluorish, and sensible regulation which allows true capilalism to grow meanwhile protecting the businesses from predatory practices. I sincerely hope that Chile does not allow the current monitary madness to continue. Debt is not wealth, and never will be.

Then welcome the man who brought consumer credit to Chile . I already hear Laura prepping for the vigorous response.

The oligarchs who rule the world have their thumb on Chile just like everywhere else. The earthquake alone will wipe out the reserve fund and possibly cause years of deficit spending unless the gov has the balls to slash massively in certain areas and rapidly incentivize real growth in the economy.

I think the healthcare comparison debate to the US is completely apples to oranges:

(1) Chile has (now had) a balanced budget, a generous surplus fund (soon to be depleted) and a real money making machine (CODELCO).
(2) Chile has only 16 million inhabitants to keep relatively happy.
(3) Chile is 90%+ a homogenous society and everyone literally has a number and is in the database from birth to death and the people have no problem with that.

As I've said before, I personally have no problem with what a country wants to do with their funds as long as said programs are well managed and fully financed with no borrowed funds.

I am aware that they are everywhere. So far, they haven't managed to completely loot it as in Argentina. My hope is that wisdom returns before Chile becomes like most of the developed world, completely in hock to the financial barons.

Tinfoil hat on:

Tinfoil hat comlink message---Subject: HAARP---the earthquakes during the presidential change ceremony were reminders to the incoming guy to not forget who's the boss---

Billions? Us oligarchs think nothing of your billions and we spit on your earthquake ravaged country rich in copper, other metals and the abundant deliciouus wine we gulp down during our exclusive Bacchanalian Eyes Wide Shut orgies.

Well the good news is that the empire is crumbling, and Chile is relatively unencumbered in the "legal fiction" which has been masterfully built. Now the main concern is maintaining the resources which are there, and rightfully belong to the Chilean people.