Chile Forum

A statue of Cromwell? This is why you've got your arse in your hand? I'm sure the Jews were ecstatic that the Germans removed all statues of Hitler. Must have helped them no end in coming to terms with their suffering.
You're comparing the systematic execution of millions of people and the deaths of millions more who defended their countries in WW2 to what Cromwell did and think all that can be be wiped away with the removal of a statue?

The statue of Cromwell is outside the Houses of Parliament because he helped to give us Parliamentary democracy, not because of what happened in Ireland.

The founding fathers were men of conviction and as such were loyal to their beliefs. They had the courage of their convictions thus we inherited a great democracy.

This is what you wrote on a different topic. Now forgive me if I'm wrong but wasn't George Washington a founding father? And didn't he kill a rather large amount of Native Americans and was given the name "town destroyer"? George Washington can have this as part of his history and he is a great man but Cromwell is a sociopath? You also had a pop at the British for "forcing the English language on Native Americans" So, it's ok to kill them, just don't make them speak English??? Both men killed innocent people, yet you only hate the one. Your digs are concentrated solely in one area and your history cherry picked for this reason. We can all pick parts of a person's history to suit our own arguments. All countries have a history of things that are good and bad, wonderful and terrible.
I think it's fairly obvious where you stand and I didn't come off the thread. As before, someone who wants a pop at the British sent it off in another direction. I think the last time we were in communication, your reply then had little bearing at all on the thread, just snide remarks about the British empire. My reply here was to Ripsigg, you chose put in your two cents that had nothing to do with the thread and I am now replying to you. Post all you like about atrocities (there are a lot to choose from)in this world but try and have a view that isn't solely concentrated on the ENGLISH. Maybe with your hatred of colonies you could start with the French in Vietnam, where many Vietnamese still speak the French language that was forced on them or maybe The Netherlands who had colonies in the Indian Ocean. King Billy mean anything to you?

maxine wrote:A statue of Cromwell? This is why you've got your arse in your hand? ...........

This youtube clip is not intended as a response to your post. (I'll respond later)
I just want to note the timeliness of this apology tho.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg_Tjc6e3BU

I’m surprised it took you so long to add the link, but all this does is reinforce my previous comments that you only have one viewpoint.
Should I have a problem with Cameron apologising? It's a good thing he's done. Read back over our posts, Murf, and tell me when I have ever said I agree with everything the British have done over the last hundreds of years? Never. Tell me when I have blatantly or implicitly insulted you or judged you on your race? Never. (Yet you have done this to me). Did I say I agreed with what Cromwell did? No I didn’t. All I did was counter your argument and show up your hypocrisy regarding two men who did similar things but your hatred was only geared towards one. When have I ever said to you that your opinion is not valid because of your race? Never, but this is what you basically said to me in a previous post. My comments to Ripsigg were nothing to do with supporting BP it was to show that there was another country involved and it was only fair that they took as much flak as BP because they are just as responsible. Neither of you have said what your replies to my comments would have been had I not been British, because my comments were not pro British. One reply was stating facts and the other was my personal opinion, which I am entitled to. I don’t represent the whole of Britain with my views I represent myself. Any other person of any other race could have said exactly the same thing and you probably wouldn’t have said anything to them like you have said to me. I don’t have a problem with the Irish and have no issues with the apology Cameron has just given. Why should I? I like the Irish (well, obviously there’s one I’m not so keen on). You seem to think that because I am British by birth that I represent everything you hate about Britain. You don’t know me and you don’t know my opinions; this has just been an opportunity for you to vent your feelings without actually answering any of the original topics.
You know when you lie back in the bath and the water fills your ears so that you can hear your own voice ok but everything else is muffled? Well, that is you. Wallowing in your bath of hatred, weighed down by the huge chip on your shoulder and not able or willing to hear anyone else.
When you manage to drag yourself up, clear your ears and are ready to read people’s comments properly and not just use them as your own personal soapbox, come back to me. Until then, perhaps we should stop communication because I’m tired of having to defend myself and my country against your bigotry, and in all honesty your monotonous, one-sided arguments are starting to bore me. Happy wallowing.

Any one who disagrees with your viewpoint is either a "racist", Full of "hatred" or whatever name you choose to throw out at the time and that is not a trait that is unique to 'you'.
I do believe that allot of the problems that the English find themselves in is due to their inability to come to terms with and take ownership of their collective past misdeeds. That apology, while being most welcome by all Irish dose nothing to change the fact that were it offered 38 years ago and were the "crown" capable of even handedness the history of the Troubles" would probably have been allot different. We might not have been subjected to that which bred the "hatred" of which you so casually speak.
Your post dose nothing but reinforce my belief that ye still don't get it.
If I may be so bold as to suggest a impartial history of Ireland... try The Oxford "history of Ireland" and pay particular attention to the last few chapters.

http://www.amazon.com/Oxford-History-Ir ... 019280202X

Murph

History is exactly that...history. You however seem unable to differentiate between the British now and the actions of people 350 years ago. David Cameron apologised for wrongdoing...he was right to do so. When can we expect an apology from the IRA for the deaths of innocent children in Warrington ? Cromwell was already dug up and hanged after his death for treason. Are you suggesting the Uk government should do it again ? The British you view as intolerant have accepted a member of the IRA into their parliament, despite him being linked to a series of bombings that killed many innocent civilians. Would the Irish parliament accept a former Black and tan into their ranks ? The British acceptance of democracy, which allowed Martin McGuinness into the house, is the same as that which defended a seperate Northern Irish state. Both McGuiness and Northern ireland are expressions of the peoples desires, and should be respected.

Maxines point appears to be your obsession with only English atrocities. Why do you not target American ones too, or other nations. The Welsh could start to demand the Italians take collective responsibility for the misdeed of their forefathers.....thousand of druids slaughtered by the Romans. Maybe the catholic church should demand the death penalty for ancestors of the Vikings who raped monks in the North of England. They however are mature enough to move on. I am not saying these things should be dismissed or forgotten, just put in perspective. Harbouring a grudge does not heal rifts or solve problems, it simply deepens division and destroys lives.

India was the on the receiving end of some very dubious British practices, but they harbour no national bitterness for this. They realise it was the actions of a few, a long time ago. They are now proud of their shared heritage with the UK, and the part they play in Britains multi-cultural society. If the British are so awful why is it that so many immigrants...including tens of thousands of Irish....see the UK as their prefered destination ? By all means retain your one sided bitter point of view. But learn to accept that ALL nations at some point have done things they are not proud of. You cannot expect them all to spend eternity kissing someones ass because of it ! Collective responsibility can only ever stretch to the end of that generation responsible. You cannot punish the son for the sins of the father.

When I google images of the Falklands and compare them to the Shetland Islands of Scotland they are indistiguishable. Complete to the last architectural details and the Land Rovers parked in the driveways. The images of the Falklands don't show any evidence of Latin America, and if someone can find anything Latin, please post it. It's been that way for over 100 years.. perhaps 200 years.
Even the Falkland local industry is identical and unique to Scotland. They aren't growing lamas over there!

The controversy is moot. I wonder why Argentina would want to own islands that are a negative to the bottom line. No one has drilled a productive well to this date.

History is exactly that...history. You however seem unable to differentiate between the British now and the actions of people 350 years ago. David Cameron apologised for wrongdoing...he was right to do so

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Ummm... Bloody Sunday happened in '72 that's 1972 not 1672....

Cromwell was already dug up and hanged after his death for treason. Are you suggesting the Uk government should do it again

?

Why not take down the statue of the murderer? but failing that I'm all for digging him up and hanging him 7 days a week.

The British you view as intolerant have accepted a member of the IRA into their parliament, despite him being linked to a series of bombings that killed many innocent civilians. Would the Irish parliament accept a former Black and tan into their ranks ?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/paisley-visits-tomb-of-the-liberator-121552.html

Maxines point appears to be your obsession with only English atrocities. Why do you not target American ones too, or other nations

. Because I and my family have been directly affected by the crown, what with being Irish and all.

India was the on the receiving end of some very dubious British practices, but they harbour no national bitterness for this. They realise it was the actions of a few, a long time ago. They are now proud of their shared heritage with the UK, and the part they play in Britains multi-cultural society

. I
We obiviously have been speaking with different Indians.

If the British are so awful why is it that so many immigrants...including tens of thousands of Irish....see the UK as their prefered destination ?

MONEY ...One could make the case that they have come to take back what is rightfully theirs

Well done Murph

I'm proud of you ! You did exactly as I planned ! You picked out the points that suited your argument and cut and pasted them. Then you completely ignored the bits you did not like i.e. the IRA being welcomed into the Houses of Parliament. Have you any idea how ridiculous you sound asking for the daily hanging of a man who died centuries ago ? Even the most rabid republican has not asked for this. We'll take down his statue when the Americans take down George Washington´s ! He was responsible for the orchestrated genocide of hundreds of thousands of native americans.

It would appear that Maxine has been 100% correct in her assessment of you as a petty minded bigot who cannot be reasoned with. I am so glad that the many Irish I know, both in the north and the republic, do not share your attitude. They simply want to get on with their lives and live in peace. Which is why Sinn Fein eventually had to go through the democratic process...something for which I congratulate them, despite my feelings about their past (my father was on a death list simply beacuse he worked in a British prison). You are still fightling a war that even the IRA themselves have given up on. Why not direct all this venom in a direction where it might serve some useful purpose, say Tibet, Burma or Chechnya ?

I'm proud of you ! You did exactly as I planned ! You picked out the points that suited your argument and cut and pasted them. Then you completely ignored the bits you did not like i.e. the IRA being welcomed into the Houses of Parliament.

Umm!! I responded with a link to Paisley being in Dail Eireann. what more could one ask for than that.
If the link don't work, c&p it into your browser ....
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/pa ... 21552.html
"For a start, it was low-key. There was no protest or controversy. He visited the Dáil, took his seat in the visitors’ gallery and, when the antics of TDs got too much, he strolled across to the Seanad"

Have you any idea how ridiculous you sound asking for the daily hanging of a man who died centuries ago ? Even the most rabid republican has not asked for this

.
Humour mate, Humour, Try it. But take down the statue of that monster if you all really want to extend an olive branch.

We'll take down his statue when the Americans take down George Washington´s ! He was responsible for the orchestrated genocide of hundreds of thousands of native Americans

.
I'm not saying for a moment that Washington was an angle, infact he too was a slave owner IIRC but what he did was to selflessly remove himself from power after his term was up. A clear break from the normal transfer established by the ruling class of England at the time. This ensured that rule by a Monarch would not exist in the States.

I will not dignify the following with a response....

It would appear that Maxine has been 100% correct in her assessment of you as a petty minded bigot who cannot be reasoned with. I am so glad that the many Irish I know, both in the north and the republic, do not share your attitude. They simply want to get on with their lives and live in peace. Which is why Sinn Fein eventually had to go through the democratic process...something for which I congratulate them, despite my feelings about their past (my father was on a death list simply beacuse he worked in a British prison). You are still fightling a war that even the IRA themselves have given up on. Why not direct all this venom in a direction where it might serve some useful purpose, say Tibet, Burma or Chechnya

?
But I will quote it for posterity

ingrambr wrote:http://www.falklands.gov.fk/a13871.html

The Queen is still legal head of state symbolically as in Canada, Australia, Jamaica...

There is nothing symbolic about it. The Queen is the Head of State, and her Governor-General is her representative. The Prime Minister is head of Parliament by her leave. The GG can and will dissolve Parliament at the behest of Her Majesty.

From Wikipedia wrote:Though the monarch retains all executive, legislative, and judicial power in and over Canada, the governor general is permitted to exercise most of this, including the Royal Prerogative, in the sovereign's name; some as outlined in the Constitution Act, 1867, and some through various letters patent issued over the decades, particularly those from 1947 that constitute the Office of Governor General of Canada; they state: "And We do hereby authorize and empower Our Governor General, with the advice of Our Privy Council for Canada or of any members thereof or individually, as the case requires, to exercise all powers and authorities lawfully belonging to Us in respect of Canada."
...
The governor general alone is also constitutionally mandated to summon parliament. Beyond that, the viceroy carries out the other conventional parliamentary duties in the sovereign's absence, including reading the Speech From the Throne and proroguing and dissolving parliament. The governor general also grants Royal Assent in the Queen's name; legally, he or she has three options: grant Royal Assent (making the bill law), withhold Royal Assent (vetoing the bill), or reserve the bill for the signification of the Queen's pleasure (allowing the sovereign to personally grant or withhold assent)

Here's a quote from Wikipedia about Cromwell... "The Parliamentarian reconquest of Ireland was brutal, and Cromwell is still a hated figure in Ireland", and the reference goes into a bit more detail regarding the different perceptions of him: "Cromwell is still a hate figure in Ireland today because of the brutal effectiveness of his campaigns in Ireland. Of course, his victories in Ireland made him a hero in Protestant England". Not only did his campaign excise 15-25% of the Irish population of that time from the map (death or exile), he left us with one of the most famous soundbites of European history, "to hell or Connaught", and enacted the "Penal Laws", which forbade among other things all forms of education, purchase of land, all professional vocations, and a lot more besides.

While you might consider George Washington, a gentleman slave-owner who considered Indians “beasts of prey” and called for their destruction, a man of his times and not exceptional for these things, Cromwell was certainly a man of exceptional brutality, I would suggest far exceeding his contemporaries. The consequences of his actions (particularly the land purchase laws, which resulted in subdivision of family properties to unsustainable sizes, as well as the impulse given to settlement by outsiders), lasted for centuries. He is, with really quite some justification, hated in Ireland. If the English Parliament chooses to venerate him as a "democrat", well, maybe this reflects in some way on them. I think virtually any Irish person would be in some way offended.

BTW, just to go on record, and to come up to date, David Cameron's apology for Bloody Sunday was as unexpected as it was generous. Not just late in the day, several inquiries too late, as has been commented, but still very memorable. Particularly coming from a Conservative Prime Minister.

Ian Paisley's visit to the Dáil is a nice vignette, though it almost certainly required more effort on the part of the visitor than the visited. In the Republic, we haven't cared about that sort of thing for a long time, I would say at least 30 years.