Chile Forum

FrankPintor wrote:

JHyre wrote:healthcare "reform" emphatically included

I forgot to mention... what is the problem with universal healthcare up there? Success should be on merit I believe, but my vision of a just government doesn't include people sleeping under bridges or in parks and I saw enough of that while I was in the states.

BTW, regarding Chavez telling Piñera not to mix with Venezuela... I'll be there for a few months from next week so I'll be able to give you the low down on that

Everyone I know here is very happy with healthcare, Pinera supporters included. I found this book on Google books(the internet is so cool ) and it is from 1996 i think but gives a pretty good overview of the Chilean healthcare system and how Fonasa and ISAPRE are connected, including charts. Older people choose Fonasa(the govt plan) while younger people with families tend to choose the private plans. Btw, a lot of the discontent in the US and Massachusetts on the left is because the current healthcare bill doesn't include any public option or anything to control costs. And the President is acting more like a Republican. Good grief- if he were a socialist as they like to spout, all those banks and insurance companies would be state owned.

The Book is Chile and Chapter 5 relates to healthcare.

http://books.google.com/books?id=sCE09u ... #PPA189,M1

There have been some reforms-it seems like 50 or 60 diseases are covered by Fonasa now. Chilean citizen pensioners don't have to pay, healthcare is free. That may be true with permanent residents. The cost ranges from 7% of income for the govt plan to 12% or so for additional coverage by private companies.

Pinera may do a lot but he won't touch universal healthcare here-it's loved by his voters too.

And the discontent on the left with the Concertacion is that they are too slow in moving forward(see MEO). I think that's very similar to MA. But no one has said that Brown in MA looks a lot like a young Ted Kennedy although his policies are vastly different. Brown's wife a TV personality and daughter was on American Idol I think. I really think many would vote just on looks and perceived personality.

john,

Read the NYT editorial, which is the living, breathing voice of American Liberalism. My simple response (in Mr. Burns voice) "Exxxxxxxcellllennnnnt". They think it is tactics, not substance and will change the steps to the dance but not the tune. Right off a political cliff in ten more months. Carter the leftie got repudiated in four years at the polls, and never learned. It took Clinton the leftie two years to become Clinton the Triangulator, he veered to the center, worked with a Republican Congress and became the first D since FDR to be elected to more than one term. ObamaPolosiReid the leftie got an early warning after one year, which may be ignored if the NYT is a guide, and will get hammered after two. I do not think that those True Believers have anywhere near the political instincts of Bill Clinton and wouldn't know how to govern from the American center even if he they did. Spells "one-termer" to me. Will give the Republicans an opportunity, should they have the brains and courage to use it (always a doubtful proposition).

Made my day, to hear the voice of liberalism "in da Nile". Bootiful. Of course, Jim Webb and his ilk might not have such tin ears......

John Hyre, one day closer to November 2,2010

so..what are we looking at in 2012.....palin vs obama???? oh please, pretty please, let the republicans nominate sarah palin....she's got half the IQ of obama (on a good day) and the True Believers on the right will no doubt look past that, and other glaring weaknesses, because she is strong on "family values".

the loss of the massachusetts seat certainly means something, i'm just not sure what. the discontent might be from not going far enough with universal health care, one of ted kennedy's lifetime goals.....or it might be from fear over the federal government budget going deeper and deeper into the red ink.

i don't see the chilean shift as "radical". yes, the voters shifted right, which may signal a certain maturity on the part of the voting public here...they understand that pinera does not equal pinochet, despite some of the graffiti i have seen.

here in chile, the interesting subgroup to me is the people who didn't vote....who are they and why didn't they vote?

and what percentage of the ballots were anulled??? were there enough anulled ballots to have swung the election to frei?

I think people need to understand that the right and left in Chile, have much more in common with the right and left in Europe than with the U.S. The right in Chile (excluding perhaps the extreme right) would likly be considered fairly left / moderate Democrats in the U.S. or perhaps more like the libertarian party in the U.S..

By that I mean the right (perhaps even the extreme right) understand that you can not mess with things like health care and other basic social programs, and still maintain a stable state. Just because you don't personally use it or need it, does not mean you are not getting the benefits. Somehow everyone forgets that what made the dictatorship possible was a series of extrema swings. The rich exploit the poor so much for generations they jumped on board with the first knucklehead that came along with a plan (any plan) via Allende. Allende then drove the country so far left the economy collapsed. There was nothing to buy, food was in short supply, no products on the shelf, long lines to buy the few things there was on the shelves. The peso added its current numerous zeros. The dictatorship (i.e. and what we know today as the extrema right UDI party) then swung the pendulum way to far the other way economically.

Imagine that last year (or perhaps this year), Obama decided to take banking and mortgage reform a few steps more. Imagine he nationalized all the mortgages on the books of banks and wallstreet that were underwater. He then forced banks to void all those mortgages, handing those properties to the residents free and clear. A trillion dollars in consumer debt and bank assets was wiped off the books overnight. The dollar was suddenly not 1.5 dollars to the Euro, but 1,500 dollars to the Euro. Imagine that you go to your local grocery store and the shelves are bare, because China and everyone else halts exports to the U.S. because of the currency collapse (what is in it for them). Imagine standing in line for hours to buy simple and basic things. Large efficient corporate farms, are ordered broken up and returned to the family farmers that lost them over the last decade to foreclosure. Do you not think someone would start taking shots at the White House? Do you not think the U.S. military and other law enforcement agencies (strong republican types politically) would not be forced to shoot back and take other actions? Do you not think really bad things would happen, including Human rights abuses of the worse sorts on a large scale?

I am not defending the dictatorship, but pointing out how the U.S. and Europe are far from immune and in fact much closer to playing with that political fire than perhaps Chile is today. Chile learned its lesson of the dangers of ignoring the poor and the middle class. It is not yet clear the U.S. has ever fully come to grips with that, with the exception of perhaps the depression era reforms that have been largely dismantled or had their teeth pulled in the last 30 years. Much of the EU has been there and done that at one time or another in the last couple hundred years.

The biggest danger that no one, anywhere in the World has come to grips with is the distorted nature of the modern corporation. For 2000 years ago we had individuals barons, patrons, citizens, lords, to put a face on the exploiters. Now what we have are super-citizens. Corporations with far more rights than individuals, far less responsibility than individuals. and often not only immune to the rule of a countries laws but immune to any particular jurisdiction. They are in fact sovereigns in their own rights often dictating laws and orders where ever they deem fit to governments and citizens. Not only are they too big to fail, by new definition of a sovereign impossible to fail. Governments can fail, but super large transnational corporations rarely do today. Yea, they might go to court and have their incorporation paperwork reshuffled, their logo update, or form new alliances with other super-corporations, but is GM really dead? Did sprint disappear? Did this or that corporation really cease to exist? They are Gods. They are now immortal for all intensive purposes. Many of the same corporations and banks that helped send Jews to the gas chambers, hid Nazi wealth are very much alive and kicking. It really reminds me of Homer's descriptions of the relationship between mortals and the gods.

admin wrote:I think people need to understand that the right and left in Chile, have much more in common with the right and left in Europe than with the U.S. The right in Chile (excluding perhaps the extreme right) would likly be considered fairly left / moderate Democrats in the U.S. or perhaps more like the libertarian party in the U.S..

Libertarians like the Cato Institute maybe

Among the luminaries at Cato is Jose Pinera, co-chair of its Project on Social Security Privatization. Cato's latest annual report says that Pinera, a former minister of labor and welfare in Chile, "oversaw the privatization of Chile's pension system in the early 1980s" -- but does not mention that at the time the Chilean government was under the dictatorship of Gen. Augusto Pinochet. Evidently, Cato's concern about intrusive government does not extend to torture and murder.

I know Sebastian is not Jose but they do have Friedman economics in common-at least a sort of Friedman economics. The modern trend is to ignore the parts of Friedman theory that doesn't square with politics. Cato has a nice group of supporters, financial and otherwise from the not so libertarian right wing. I see today's republicans as completely having lost their way as far as individual rights although they really defend the large corporations. And I really used to be impressed, long ago, with the right wing stance on individual rights. Of course I once admired their fiscal conservatism, also long gone. I see they can spend as well as democrats, they just don't raise taxes(i.e. pay for it).

Warning: This link contains words like "accuracy"

http://www.accuracy.org/article.php?articleId=51

The healthcare bill in the US was a better deal for corporations than universal healthcare here(although it's a really good deal for them here-at last count 300 companies vying for the market) and yet the right was screaming about death camps while completely ignoring a real opportunity to cash in.

Ok, I'm done.

All the best to Pinera in his new job. The successes of Chile are not going unnoticed up here in the U.S. Just in the past month I've heard major figures on radio and TV mention Chile and how it's outpacing the other economies in South America with better financial discipline and growth in per capita income.

As for Mr. Obama, people are finding that he was just a mirror that reflected their hopes and wishes, a nice man with no real substance. Sure he has a booming nicotine voice, and he looks dashing in a suit and $300 necktie, but he's just not cut out to be a leader. He lacks the experience needed to administer the federal government and he is easily bullied by more experienced politicians in both houses of Congress. Obama would make a fine law professor at a small, liberal arts college.

Laura55llc wrote:

admin wrote:The healthcare bill in the US was a better deal for corporations than universal healthcare here(although it's a really good deal for them here-at last count 300 companies vying for the market) and yet the right was screaming about death camps while completely ignoring a real opportunity to cash in.

I don't want to hijack this thread, but I can't let that statement go by without a response. We have a system called Medicare where people aged 65 and older get health care funded largely by the government. Doctors hate it with a passion, to the point where they refuse to accept new patients, even though they could easily "cash in". An example: The doctor bills $300 for tests and treatment, Medicare denies all but $75 of the bill, then 18-24 months later, the doctor is paid $15. Medicare is an abject failure, yet Obama wanted to implement a similar system nationwide!

The simple truth is we have no way to pay for the present government health care system, let alone a "reformed" system that would add another 10-30 million patients to the government rolls. All the reform laws do is cleverly find a way to pick Peter's pocket to pay for Paul's health care. Right now in the U.S., there are five Pauls for every one Peter.

Laura,

You have me at a disadvantage, as you surely more about Fonasa than I. From everything I have heard, it is quite popular across party lines and seems to work well in the Chilean context. Question: If we replaced existing (e.g. Medicare, Medicaid) and proposed government healthcare in the US with Fonasa (including copying exactly what it does and does not cover and its other features), would Americans be happy with it as a supplement to a truly private system (which we have not had since the 1960’s)?


Cali,

You give me Hope! for Change We Can Believe In. MA electing an anti-Obama, anti- healthcare Republican because the existing proposals did not go far enough? Ridiculous. A cursory examination of issues and poll data would back up what sense makes clear to most. Even Obama gets that, given that he is now looking to downscale his proposals, at least in word if perhaps not in fact. Nonetheless, I dream of the Democrats pushing for healthcare "reform" harder & harder, the way you dream of Sarah Palin as a presidential candidate.....unlikely, but dreamy for our respective positions.

Speaking of which.....I have more Hope! than ever based on your comments. First, I do not think that Sarah Palin has a chance to be the Republican candidate, nor do I think that she is doing what must be done to head in that direction. While not nearly as dumb as portrayed by the Democrat's media allies, she does lack depth on issues. She tends to intuit the right answer (which is how most Americans approach things), but cannot discuss, say, the intricacies of our policy towards Israel, etc. When it comes to inexperience, she has about the same experience as the empty suit in the Oval Office, so that clearly isn’t a fatal barrier. A lack of wonkishness (greatly exaggerated by the press, which treats Palin or Quayle very differently from Biden or what’s her face in MA) and quitting as governor killed her chances as a candidate. That, and I do not think that she wants to go through the hell that is modern politics again. Making some money for herself and raising massive amounts of money for her political allies will likely meet her goals.

Obama is her opposite, not just in ideology, but also in traits. He is somewhat smart in the traditional "high IQ" sense.....and has absolutely no sense or real-world understanding. He reminds me of the old Gary Larson cartoon where a kid was pushing on a door with all his might....and the door was marked "School for the Gifted, Pull Open". Like most liberal arts professors & “intellectuals” today, he is a brilliant idiot......ala Adlai Stevenson, the original egghead. And like most so-called intellectuals, Obama thinks himself better than the hoi polloi, the rubes in flyover-country, who need to have their freedom diminished for their own good…..and of course, intellectuals such as Obama, by virtue of their popularity with other brilliant idiots, their Ivy League degrees, and the like, should be the ones to guide their stunted little redneck brothers to the Way, by force if need be. Never mind that the brilliant idiots’ ideas can only work in Hollywood, the press and academia. Everywhere they apply their Ivory Tower ideas, somehow they fail and cause more misery than good. For example, the liberal government healthcare solution to end all healthcare solutions of the 1960’s is now ten times (!!!) over budget (hmmmm, no “savings”), squeezing out the once functional private market and sucking more money than the military from the budget. But now, this time, they’ll get it right, it really will work, just trust us with 1/6 of the economy. Right.

Sarah Palin’s popularity is certainly not because of her educational pedigree or detailed grasp of foreign policy. That popularity is a rejection of pedantic, condescending brilliant idiots with such pedigrees. She really has common sense (Obama doesn’t have enough of that to tie his own shoes or speak without a TelePrompTer), really is “one of us” and “gets it”, something that people like Obama, with their obvious disdain for “bitter people who cling to Guns and God” will never get. It is that arrogance towards Palin in particular and the common man in general (who leftists everywhere profess to love and seek to rule) that makes people like Obama think they can and should run our lives and reduce our freedom. It is that arrogance that may well cause them to ignore the Massachusetts rebuke, as you suggest, and go at the speed of lemming straight into the political air. And it is that arrogance, combined with the failed status quo of liberalism (masquerading as “change”) that shines through at the ballot box and ultimately costs these people elections. If the Republicans ever do get their act together (not a very promising prospect, I admit), the chances that the brilliant idiots to run our lives go right down the tubes. So by all means, crack on that "dummy" Sarah Palin….and watch when “dummies” like Eisenhower, Reagan, and Bush eat the lunch of Pinheads like Stevenson, Carter, Mondale, Gore and Kerry.

I do not care for or agree with Obama, but I do understand where he is coming from and why his base likes him. Can you honestly say the same of Palin? I do not think so. Probably their bitterness, right?

John Hyre, getting more Hope! by the minute

I don't think copying the Chilean health care system would help in most respects. There is one aspect however that I think everyone in the States, including insurance companies, might be willing to jump on board. That is the government underwriting of catastrophic coverage. You can have your cake and eat it too in health care, even if it is not good for your health.

What is the one of the core argument that insurance companies make repeatedly for why insurance is so expensive? It is because that 1 in 10 or 1 in 100 patients, or 1 in whatever that cost say a $100,000 to millions of dollars to provide coverage. The Chilean fund makes private insurance affordable in Chile, because it takes that risk and cost off the back of any particular insurance company and distributes it nationally; yet, they all pay in with each policy to fund it. It also takes the risk off the back of the patient, as it caps the deductible in the event of such medical services are needed. It also makes the insurance companies by law accept certain conditions and certain clients, but at the same time makes them not care so much about preexisting conditions because the catastrophic health care system has them covered.

It makes real affordable competition possible in the market, so that patients and insurance companies can essentially haggle over the perks on their basic plans. Everyone gets the real money saving coverage. That is day to day medical services that stop people from getting really sick in the first place, thus lowering the need for catastrophic care. My big concern when pricing my Chilean insurance policy and my insurance companies concern is how good a private room will I get if I am hospitalized, not will it cover me in the event I develop cancer, a heart attack, or whatever.

Say, by the way. Retired foreigners can buy in to Fonesa if you like, even if you are too old to get insurance from a private company. The cost is based on your retirement income, and it looks to be capped at 7%. We are putting together a series of articles on it.

Didn't take long for this thread to drift out to sea! Let me save y'all lots of typing. The democrats are shit and the republicans are crap (I ran both words through my Spanish dictionary and they translate as the same word, "excremento". Both are bought and payed for. America is brain dead and waiting for the coroner's verdict and the supreme court just over ruled 100 years of their own decisions and removed what little limit on corporate donations to politicians we had.

And my paper work is in Washington DC and even if I get it back from them what are the odds that I will get it back from the Chilean consulate in a manner sufficiently expeditious for me to escape before they close the boarders.

OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!!!

As predicted, it is starting. We have reports that 150 top goverment employees, plus numerous professional contractors in the IX region are going to be replaced by the new administration immediately. I suspect a lot of their favorite support staff will go also, likly at a 10 to 1 ratio or better.

We also just got a rumor that all of the managers of Banco Estado have been called to Santiago for a meeting. I am betting all the guys related to uncle Jorge at the central bank or the interior ministry, are going to get the boot along with uncle jorge himself.