Chile Forum

I came across this article about a meeting of funeral directors and their plans for the Fall months:

http://tinyurl.com/mmbpb8

There surely must be an error in the numbers quoted -- 2%-3% fatalities?

Before the next flu season here in Chile, if there are any Chile licensed doctors that can certify my allergy to flu vaccine components or any religious order that I can join to opt out of a mandatory vaccination, please PM me.

Hey guys, Chile made the national new tonight, here is the yahoo version:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090821/hl ... 0821031108

H1N1 in turkeys, oh my -- does that mean a new strain, the jive-turkey flu?

So the turkeys come from Valparaiso, huh?

Forgive my ignorance, but isn't it the dead of winter in Chile right now? Doesn't that mean it should be Chile's flu season right now? Given all the quickly materializing documents on the internet about what the US govt is planning in terms of forced vaccinations here (Massachusetts legislature is now in process of passing a law effectively ending all constitutional rights so it can force vaccinate, kidnap, quarantine, "decontaminate" spray, fine, jail, etc. any vaccine resistors), I'd think Chile would be experiencing some level of swine flu suffering, no? Why are people in this thread so light-hearted--why am I not reading things like "my brother's in quarantine and my neighbor just died from the swine flu." ?

I'm in the USA right now. If it is already flu season there as I would expect, then is this basically a non-event in Chile, like it oughta be? Or should we still wait a few months to find out?

What I'm saying is this: shouldn't we in the Northern Hemisphere enjoying late summer right now be looking to the countries in the Southern Hemisphere to see how swine flu is materializing there during their current winter season? If it's not that bad there now, that's good for the world, right?

JARobin wrote:If it is already flu season there as I would expect, then is this basically a non-event in Chile, like it oughta be? Or should we still wait a few months to find out?

This flu isn't a concern because it's going to wipe out half the human race, it's a concern because it's going to sicken and kill more people than would normally happen during flu season, and also put extra strain on health service infrastructures around the world that, in many places, can't handle it (take a look at Australia as a first-world example).

By the way: Chile: 12175 lab-confirmed cases, 128 confirmed deaths from the "swine" H1N1 flu this year. That's 128 MORE people than will die of the normal flu. I guess it's a "non-event" because you didn't know any of those people who died.

Also, I'm going to take this as pure hyperbole unless you can back it up:

JARobin wrote:Given all the quickly materializing documents on the internet about what the US govt is planning in terms of forced vaccinations here (Massachusetts legislature is now in process of passing a law effectively ending all constitutional rights so it can force vaccinate, kidnap, quarantine, "decontaminate" spray, fine, jail, etc. any vaccine resistors)

A quick google search didn't turn up any "outed" US government documents about federally forced vaccination plans. If you're referring to the MA bill (Senate bill S2028), first off Massachusetts government isn't the same as US government, so if you don't like it, move. Second, you seem to interpret "passing a law" as a bill that has been tabled in committee (if not killed by now) for 4 months, getting pushed back by such urgent docket items as "reimbursement of Colonel William J. Gormley, III". Even assuming the bill raises from that quagmire and is passed by the House, your hyperbolic description is disingenuous at best. The majority of the bill has to do with emergency powers to grant liability projection to health care workers, set up emergency triage centers, and guarantee transportation of medical supplies. The parts you're referring to about kidnapping, jailing etc for refusal of vaccination is false; it does give the (limited) right to the state to require vaccinations, the penalty for refusal is quarantine. But again, this is a state issue; if my state passed this, I think I'd be looking for a more friendly state to live in.

Before someone says it, I don't support martial law or dictatorship or whatever, but I think we need to be intellectually honest about what information we're presenting here.

MJRussel,

Thanks for the reply. I respect it. Forgive me for sounding callous and saying it's been a "non-event." I've simply been unaware of the current numbers in Chile, and I really gotta say that, if this is what the winter swine flu season has to inflict on Chile (not even clearing 200 deaths at this point), then this is really not warranting the reaction of the media and government I'm seeing. True, it's probably not fair to use Chile as a guage for other countries such as USA, when Chile's population is smaller and population density is lower. But I'm trying to get a "feel from those on the ground" in a country currently in the midst of its flu season. I'm trying to look at the big picture, since I anticipate government overreaction here in the US come fall and winter flu season here.

The bill reportedly just passed in Mass. Senate and is awaiting approval in the Mass. House. The drug company (isn't it Merck doing these vaccines?) and government are ramping up production of an untested vaccine to have around 150 million doses ready by October. Then they'll want to get those used up, no doubt, to justify production of more for the rest of the seaon/year. Raise your hand here, anyone who thinks they're going to let that massive quantity of doses (half the US population) just sit around unused. Plus, there are plenty of reasons to utilize an alternative means of protection from this flu, such as the risk of Guillane-Barre Syndrome. I don't see this as a "just one state" thing. The whole nation could soon find itself under a state of emergency and mandatory vaccinations. The Executive Orders have already been drawn up. All the President has to do is declare the state of emergency.

You can read the text of the bill yourself here: http://www.mass.gov/legis/bills/senate/ ... t02028.pdf

Here are some quotes from the bill.

(Violation of 4th Amendment: Illegal search and seizure)

"During either type of declared emergency, a local public health authority... may exercise authority... to require the owner or occupier of premises to permit entry into and investigation of the premises; to close, direct, and compel the evacuation of, or to decontaminate or cause to be"
decontaminated any building or facility; to destroy any material; to restrict or prohibit assemblages of persons;

(Violation of 14th Amendment; illegal arrest without a warrant)

"...an officer authorized to serve criminal process may arrest without a warrant any person whom the officer has probable cause to believe has violated an order given to effectuate the purposes of this subsection and shall use reasonable diligence to enforce such order." [Gunpoint]

(Government price controls)

"The attorney general, in consultation with the office of consumer affairs and business regulation, and upon the declaration by the governor that a supply emergency exists, shall take appropriate action to ensure that no person shall sell a product or service that is at a price that unreasonably exceeds the price charged before the emergency."

"Involuntary Transportation" (also known as kidnapping)

"Law enforcement authorities, upon order of the commissioner or his agent or at the request of a local public health authority pursuant to such order, shall assist emergency medical technicians or other appropriate medical personnel in the involuntary transportation of such person to the tuberculosis treatment center."

$1,000 / day in fines

"Any person who knowingly violates an order, as to which noncompliance
poses a serious danger to public health as determined by the commissioner or the local public health authority, shall be punished by imprisonment for not more than 30 days or a fine of not more than one thousand dollars per day that the violation continues, or both."

Forced vaccinations

"Furthermore, when the commissioner or a local public health authority within its jurisdiction determines that either or both of the following measures are necessary to prevent a serious danger to the public health the commissioner or local public health authority may exercise the following authority: (1) to vaccinate or provide precautionary prophylaxis to individuals as protection against communicable disease..."

Forced quarantine for those who refuse (illegal imprisonment without charge)

"An individual who is unable or unwilling to submit to vaccination or treatment shall not be required to submit to such procedures but may be isolated or quarantined pursuant to section 96 of chapter 111 if his or her refusal poses a serious danger to public health or results in uncertainty whether he or she has been exposed to or is infected with a disease or condition that poses a serious danger to public health, as determined by the commissioner, or a local public health authority operating within its jurisdiction."

Arrest for refusal to be "decontaminated"

"If an individual is unable or unwilling to submit to decontamination or procedures necessary for diagnosis, the decontamination or diagnosis procedures may proceed only pursuant to an order of the superior court... During the time necessary to obtain such court order, such individual may be isolated or quarantined pursuant to section 96 of chapter 111 if his or her refusal to submit to decontamination or diagnosis procedures poses a serious danger to public health or results in uncertainty whether he or she has been exposed to or is infected with a disease or condition that poses a serious danger to public health."

Interrogation

"When the commissioner or a local public health authority within its jurisdiction reasonably believes that a person may have been exposed to a disease or condition that poses a threat to the public health, in addition to their authority under section 96 of chapter 111, the commissioner or the local public health authority may detain the person for as long as may be reasonably necessary for the commissioner or the local public health authority, to convey information to the person regarding the disease or condition and to obtain contact information... If a person detained under subsection (1) refuses to provide the information requested, the person may be isolated or quarantined pursuant to section 96 of chapter 111 if his or her refusal poses a serious danger to public health..."

Forced isolation and quarantine

"An order for isolation or quarantine may include any individual who is unwilling or unable to undergo vaccination, precautionary prophylaxis, medical treatment, decontamination, medical examinations, tests, or specimen collection and whose refusal of one or more of these measures poses a serious danger to public health or results in uncertainty whether he or she has been exposed to or is infected with a disease or condition that poses a serious danger to public health."

This is probably going to end up being a situation where we just have to "agree to disagree", but on a couple points:

JARobin wrote:MJRussel,
Thanks for the reply. I respect it. Forgive me for sounding callous and saying it's been a "non-event." I've simply been unaware of the current numbers in Chile, and I really gotta say that, if this is what the winter swine flu season has to inflict on Chile (not even clearing 200 deaths at this point), then this is really not warranting the reaction of the media and government I'm seeing. True, it's probably not fair to use Chile as a guage for other countries such as USA, when Chile's population is smaller and population density is lower. But I'm trying to get a "feel from those on the ground" in a country currently in the midst of its flu season. I'm trying to look at the big picture, since I anticipate government overreaction here in the US come fall and winter flu season here.

For the big picture, take a glance at the numbers across the Southern hemisphere, looking at reported deaths per million: Chile 7.55, Argentina 10.94, Australia 6.72, New Zealand 4.63. No, these aren't huge numbers, certainly not going to put the human race at risk. But if you take NZ's number for example and apply it to the US, you're looking at almost 1400 more people dying this year than usual.

Regarding media hysteria... well, it's the media, by nature they're hysterical. Part of the problem was with the word "pandemic", it makes people scared, when all it indicates is a disease that spreads rapidly, it doesn't inherently imply anything about mortality rates or degree of sickness or anything like that.

JARobin wrote:The bill reportedly just passed in Mass. Senate and is awaiting approval in the Mass. House.

The Senate version passed on April 28, as I said above it's been sitting in House committee for 4 months and hasn't made it to the active docket yet. It's probably worth mentioning that this is an update of a bill that the Senate has been pushing for years by hasn't been able to get the support to get into law.

JARobin wrote:The drug company (isn't it Merck doing these vaccines?) and government are ramping up production of an untested vaccine to have around 150 million doses ready by October.

There are is more than one company making the vaccines, although I'm sure Merck is one; as far as I'm aware, the government doesn't produce them. I don't see any stats on who's testing what, although I saw an ABC news article saying that in testing no serious side effects have presented themselves (obviously this doesn't mean that there's no possibility of serious side effects).

JARobin wrote:The Illuminati/New World Order/BIG PHARMA will command the president of the United States to create death camps where dissenters will be given poisonous vaccines.

Even I'll admit that anything's possible, our government has done some truly awful things; however, I think you're making some awfully spurious claims without backing anything up. The pharmas will have no trouble getting rid of the majority of their vaccines without needing the government to round people up and force them.

JARobin wrote:You can read the text of the bill yourself here: http://www.mass.gov/legis/bills/senate/ ... t02028.pdf

Yeah, I took a look at it, and addressed a bit of this earlier. You've certainly highlighted several areas that are, on their face, very troubling. I disagree with your characterization of the State transporting someone against their will as kidnapping, otherwise people are being "kidnapped" daily by State and Federal police officers.

I think the thing that makes this specific bill a bit less troubling for me is that the powers outlined here aren't that different from what governors of various (all?) states already have, as well as the President, to enact martial law to various degrees during times deemed to be "states of emergency". The distinction with this bill is that it deals specifically with public health emergencies, and a lot of what you excluded deals with communication, transportation of supplies, emergency triage centers, etc.

I may be wrong and there may be some vast government + BIG PHARMA conspiracy here that begins in MA and spreads, but I'm more of an Occam's Razor guy, I don't believe the government's nearly competent enough to pull off something that big. Feel free to prove me wrong though, I'm not afraid to admit when I've made a mistake.