Chile Forum

Good one Tomas...
Let's kick it around a bit more...
The local rag - La Estrella Arica - today announces that a 73 year old Japanese grandfather was arrested at Chacalluta airport with 5kg of coke in his suitcase.
On his way to Santiago... then out of the country
Hmmm...
If we remember the basic statistics of those they catch vs. those they don't... (mas o menos 5-10%)
i.e. for every ONE they catch... there are probably 18-19 who are successful.
Wow... gotta be LOTS of drugs going to the south - whether from Arica...
Or arguably elsewhere from Peru, or Bolivia... by land borders, or by air.
Seems to g~j that there's probably a lot of "drug addicts" in Santiago and environs...eh?
Most folks around XV Region these days are too damn poor to afford drugs and get addicted...
Try Iquique and Antofagasta with all the mining infrastructure and attendant money???
Saw another headline from the Iquique rag today - pisteleros robbing a farmacia for drugs~money.
And thus it continues beyond - to all those "los ricos" up South
Who need to feed their monkeys
All the pots up south have no basis calling the kettles to the north anything- especially "black"

tombrad2 wrote:I am not much interested in holly wars on what place is better or silly discussions on personal anecdotes -things who happen almos daily in Chile and everywere- Just for informative purposes I will mention that the most respected study on crime in Chile is the so called "Encuesta de Victimizacion" made by Adimark and Fundacion Paz Ciudadana, which is based in representative samples all over the country instead of mere dennounces in the police the crime in cities from more to less (July 2009) are:

City % victimizacion
Concepcion 44
Puerto Montt 41.1
Gran Santiago 38.7
Curico 37.9
Valparaiso 37.1
Antofagasta 35.4
Iquique 34.7
Temuco 33.4
Copiapo 33.1
Rancagua 31.8
Valdivia 30.5
Viña del Mar 29.3
Talca 28.8
Arica 28.1
La Serena 27.4
Osorno 25.4
Punta Arenas 14.3

Arica used to be the 2nd safer after Punta Arenas, in this survey (July 2009) falled to 4th, still is one of the safest, les than 30% victimizacion is considered quite safe.

Anyway there is a marked correlation between the population and victimizacion so, the less people come to Arica the safer will remain

Sorry if you take offense at my sharing my opinion and experience. Which is neither Holly or anecdotal. I thought that was the point of a forum. And I'm happy for your feeling safe in your home town. That's huge.
However, I've lived and traveled constantly in all of Chile in for 25 years. Take Stgo, Conce, Valpo out of the equation. You can throw out all the numbers you want, I know where I feel safe. I know when I'm at risk.
You guys have great waves by the way.
And I find the kettles blacker down south. I think its from cooking more over brasas.

Hello Seawolf180

SOrry if I was unpolite, it was not my intention. Of course avery one can feel safe or unsafe in a city, anyone can have their own opinion on a place there is nothing to argue on that. I just was trying to be informative with a source which I consider reliable (even many public policies are decided based in this survey) and I think that besides anyone´s personal opinion -absolutly valid- there are also research and figures which may be considered.

See, I am chilean, was born in Santiago and raised in one of the mos dangeorus areas (poblacion La Victoria, for those who know it) then at 15 I spent 4 years living in Chiloe and the last 36 years in Arica, with some 8 years living intermitent in Iquique. May I be wrong but I think that I know my people and the social changes in Chile, you know, to be local may help.

Well, I just posted because in my opinion the idea of high drug consuption or high crime in Arica is a factual error, I know the drugs issue very well and in the map of drug addicts big cieties as Santiago, COncepcion, Valparaiso, even Iquique are far higher than in Arica, or any medium to small city in Chile. I am not "defending the honor" of Arica (I don´t care such thing really) but trying to share my experience.backed with some research.

There are one statistic who mention a relatively high consuption of drugs between kids in Arica, I mean Encuesta Conace, but their methodology is -in my view- far to serious, based in "interviews" where kids usually answer kidding, the purpose of this survey is obtain public funds so is notoriously biased.

Which I think is out of discussion is the rate of crime, several national statistics mention Arica as one of the safest in Chile.

tombrad2 wrote:Hello Seawolf180

SOrry if I was unpolite, it was not my intention. Of course avery one can feel safe or unsafe in a city, anyone can have their own opinion on a place there is nothing to argue on that. I just was trying to be informative with a source which I consider reliable (even many public policies are decided based in this survey) and I think that besides anyone´s personal opinion -absolutly valid- there are also research and figures which may be considered.

See, I am chilean, was born in Santiago and raised in one of the mos dangeorus areas (poblacion La Victoria, for those who know it) then at 15 I spent 4 years living in Chiloe and the last 36 years in Arica, with some 8 years living intermitent in Iquique. May I be wrong but I think that I know my people and the social changes in Chile, you know, to be local may help.

Well, I just posted because in my opinion the idea of high drug consuption or high crime in Arica is a factual error, I know the drugs issue very well and in the map of drug addicts big cieties as Santiago, COncepcion, Valparaiso, even Iquique are far higher than in Arica, or any medium to small city in Chile. I am not "defending the honor" of Arica (I don´t care such thing really) but trying to share my experience.backed with some research.

There are one statistic who mention a relatively high consuption of drugs between kids in Arica, I mean Encuesta Conace, but their methodology is -in my view- far to serious, based in "interviews" where kids usually answer kidding, the purpose of this survey is obtain public funds so is notoriously biased.

Which I think is out of discussion is the rate of crime, several national statistics mention Arica as one of the safest in Chile.

You know your country well. And your points are all well taken. I must have had some shit luck, or made bad choices in Arica. I'm also pissed at whats been going on in Pichilemu during the summer lately. Out of control. And it's total excess of drugs and booze rooted. I have kids, I hate the influence of drugs on this society...its gotten worse. Not nearly as bad as some locals but defenitely worse.
Thanks.
Lago Chungara is one of the most beautiful places I've seen.

Ah Seawoolf, I think thar every one of us living in Chile are pissing with the way that crime has raised, I think -and is just my opinion again- that a series of permisive policies, starting with "Leyes Cumplido" in the early 90s has empowered criminals and turned crime in a safe and profitable activity, it seems it is a world trend and I hope it reverse soon
cheers!

I must have had some shit luck, or made bad choices in Arica. I'm also pissed at whats been going on in Pichilemu during the summer lately. Out of control. And it's total excess of drugs and booze rooted. I have kids, I hate the influence of drugs on this society...its gotten worse. Not nearly as bad as some locals but defenitely worse.

g~j think that first part is really accurate seawolf...
Just a matter of wrong place - wrong time...
This phenomenon happens quite a bit - then people tend to make inaccurate projections and generalizations, far beyond what might be the actual situation.
Another example of those fallacies and biases, that g~j have beaten around other posts.
It all gets down to perception of risk...
[we'll try to keep it short~simple here].
One of the hats g~ wore (for about 16 years) was in the field of "risk management"
This was not the financial side many might associate... but the physical side...
The stuff that will really hurt you and kill you.
Viewed as a professional, we can only say that the large majority of folks have very little understanding of where "risks" in their life really lie.
Hey... take a bunch of less-than-accurate views foisted by the fear-mongering media, then add a dose of hearsay and urban legend, plus a smattering of flawed interpretation based on less-than-critical thinking... mix it all into the risk~decision stew...
Whaddya get?
Unfortunately, many risk~decisions based on a flawed paradigm.
At the risk of boring some... it gets down to "paradigm paralysis" - which is akin to another animal called "confirmation bias".
Hey... g~ could wax poetic on this stuff for pages
But let's keep it in context...
If anybody makes some decision about "risks" - as to where to go or live in Chile (or anywhere)
Based on such demonstrably false paradigms... well, there are lots of grains of salt in that old shaker.
Most folks have no concept that it ain't the "drug addict" in Arica, or anywhere, that's gonna cause you harm...
Proviso... unless they are stupid enuff to walk out of a bar, half smashed, late at night, in the wrong part of town, flashing their cash and golden rings... and "ASK FOR IT"
It's the entirely mundane things that offer "risk" to people... time and time again.
Like not looking left and right before you cross the street and get hit by that big freak'n bus.
Case in point... the tragic accident recently in Santiago.
Hey... petty and opportunistic theft is one thing - this can happen anywhere, if a person is not "mindful" of the situation they are in.
g~j, over 13 years of traveling and living in some pretty rough~remote places, have been "victims" of such theft perhaps 3 or 4 time - mostly our own damn fault - and in the long run, pretty inconsequential.
Petty theft and property damage notwithstanding...
g~j defy ANYONE to show proof that any expat here in Chile has suffered injury or death from a "drug addict"
Here in Arica... or anywhere else.
Prove us wrong - if you can... then put it into a statistical analysis, and a broader geographic sample... for the BIGGER picture.

Whew... that was a long one... g~j now need a good dose of their evening drug of choice
Salud, allchileans

greg~judy wrote:

I must have had some shit luck, or made bad choices in Arica. I'm also pissed at whats been going on in Pichilemu during the summer lately. Out of control. And it's total excess of drugs and booze rooted. I have kids, I hate the influence of drugs on this society...its gotten worse. Not nearly as bad as some locals but defenitely worse.

g~j think that first part is really accurate seawolf...
Just a matter of wrong place - wrong time...
This phenomenon happens quite a bit - then people tend to make inaccurate projections and generalizations, far beyond what might be the actual situation.
Another example of those fallacies and biases, that g~j have beaten around other posts.
It all gets down to perception of risk...
[we'll try to keep it short~simple here].
One of the hats g~ wore (for about 16 years) was in the field of "risk management"
This was not the financial side many might associate... but the physical side...
The stuff that will really hurt you and kill you.
Viewed as a professional, we can only say that the large majority of folks have very little understanding of where "risks" in their life really lie.
Hey... take a bunch of less-than-accurate views foisted by the fear-mongering media, then add a dose of hearsay and urban legend, plus a smattering of flawed interpretation based on less-than-critical thinking... mix it all into the risk~decision stew...
Whaddya get?
Unfortunately, many risk~decisions based on a flawed paradigm.
At the risk of boring some... it gets down to "paradigm paralysis" - which is akin to another animal called "confirmation bias".
Hey... g~ could wax poetic on this stuff for pages
But let's keep it in context...
If anybody makes some decision about "risks" - as to where to go or live in Chile (or anywhere)
Based on such demonstrably false paradigms... well, there are lots of grains of salt in that old shaker.
Most folks have no concept that it ain't the "drug addict" in Arica, or anywhere, that's gonna cause you harm...
Proviso... unless they are stupid enuff to walk out of a bar, half smashed, late at night, in the wrong part of town, flashing their cash and golden rings... and "ASK FOR IT"
It's the entirely mundane things that offer "risk" to people... time and time again.
Like not looking left and right before you cross the street and get hit by that big freak'n bus.
Case in point... the tragic accident recently in Santiago.
Hey... petty and opportunistic theft is one thing - this can happen anywhere, if a person is not "mindful" of the situation they are in.
g~j, over 13 years of traveling and living in some pretty rough~remote places, have been "victims" of such theft perhaps 3 or 4 time - mostly our own damn fault - and in the long run, pretty inconsequential.
Petty theft and property damage notwithstanding...
g~j defy ANYONE to show proof that any expat here in Chile has suffered injury or death from a "drug addict"
Here in Arica... or anywhere else.
Prove us wrong - if you can... then put it into a statistical analysis, and a broader geographic sample... for the BIGGER picture.

Whew... that was a long one... g~j now need a good dose of their evening drug of choice
Salud, allchileans

Maybe its the typical psycho babble style, and authoritative tone, of your response, which is fascinating as usual, but it sounds like you're giving drug addicts a pass, and placing the entire responsibility on me for parking in a public space mid day.
g~j sound like a defense attorney.

Maybe its the typical psycho babble style, and authoritative tone, of your response, which is fascinating as usual, but it sounds like you're giving drug addicts a pass, and placing the entire responsibility on me for parking in a public space mid day.
g~j sound like a defense attorney.

Not in the least seawolf...
Please don't put words in our mouths.
And as we said, clearly...
You were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time...
Can happen to anyone - any place.
Has happened to us... we accepted the situation and the consequences.
Like you said...
Shit happens.
And you, or any allchileans can accept our "tone" and "presentation" and do what you want with it...
Gets down to don't "kill the messenger" at the expense of not accepting the "message".
Whatever...
Peace, bro'
BTW... Pichilemu was on our "short-list" when we were looking around...
You have a nice situation there... druggies and bad actors notwithstanding.
Hope to visit one day

greg~judy wrote:

Maybe its the typical psycho babble style, and authoritative tone, of your response, which is fascinating as usual, but it sounds like you're giving drug addicts a pass, and placing the entire responsibility on me for parking in a public space mid day.
g~j sound like a defense attorney.

Not in the least seawolf...
Please don't put words in our mouths.
And as we said, clearly...
You were simply in the wrong place at the wrong time...
Can happen to anyone - any place.
Has happened to us... we accepted the situation and the consequences.
Like you said...
Shit happens.
And you, or any allchileans can accept our "tone" and "presentation" and do what you want with it...
Gets down to don't "kill the messenger" at the expense of not accepting the "message".
Whatever...
Peace, bro'
BTW... Pichilemu was on our "short-list" when we were looking around...
You have a nice situation there... druggies and bad actors notwithstanding.
Hope to visit one day

You amaze me.
Pichi is great, look us up. I'm not sure how many you to expect, but look us up.

Now that's a risk.

Pichi is great, look us up. I'm not sure how many you to expect, but look us up.

Muchas gracias seawolf...
Hope it will happen some day - (just the two of us).
Glad the misconceptions have been resolved.

Now that's a risk.

No worries

tombrad2 wrote:Ah Seawoolf, I think thar every one of us living in Chile are pissing with the way that crime has raised, I think -and is just my opinion again- that a series of permisive policies, starting with "Leyes Cumplido" in the early 90s has empowered criminals and turned crime in a safe and profitable activity, it seems it is a world trend and I hope it reverse soon
cheers!

I think this comment and the associated observations are accurate. I hear similar opinions from chilean nationals who work for various agencies of the Chilean government, including those agencies that provide the so-called social services. This is particularly true of those fifty or older who watched the changes through the years.

Prior to 1990 Chileans enjoyed relatively low concern for exposure to violent crime. However, during the 1990s there was a growing awareness in Chile of the sometimes rapid increases in crime rates, and in particular violent crimes. The national government failed to recognise linkage between its social policies (including enforcement and institutional correction tendencies) and the rising crime rates. The apologists for this tended to repeat the homilies that crime was the simple result of low income conditions, failing to observe that even lower incomes with correspondingly less purchasing power prevailed prior to 1990. Through the 1990s the surveys of reasons for committing theft, for example, noted a significant trend away from "needing money to survive" in favour of wanting money for drugs and more "discretionary" items beyond basic living and shelter requirements.

Organisations such as Fundación Paz Ciudadana have kept useful statistics and survey reports through the years. One of the disturbing aspects of the analyses is the apparent belief of many juvenile offenders that their criminal behaviours and actions have "social support" ("apoyo social percibido") from not only their peer group but from social agencies which are designed to care for them.

I remember a scene in an open market in Santiago in 1993 in which the carabineros chased a suspect around and around until finally cornering him. In the US, the offender would probably have been slammed to the ground and handcuffed, then hauled away in disgrace. But the pacos in Santiago, perhaps afraid of appearing to be thought of as brutal ( or serious) treated the event as some sort of playground game. Instead of handcuffs, one of the pacos gave the suspect what they refer to in the US as "noogies"-- a sort of childish arm-thumping that does no real harm. The suspect externally showed no remorse or disgrace -- only an "end of game" relief. This sort of coddling behaviour, of course, only reinforces the prevailing belief by all local observers that crime and its consequences, in the market or elsewhere in Chile, is just a bit of a little game.

I used to work in Tribunales during the decade of 90s and saw the process of Reforma Penal from the ringside. in my opinion the reforma was politically biased and mis diagnosed.The main idea was the lack of guarantees as fundamental problem, and a huge amount of money was poured in a proccess to fix this fundamental problem, as expert diagnosed. Many common sense errors, political razzia against judges who do not agreed with the new desig, lots of corruption (the Corporacion para la promocion universitaria, who received big part of the zillions spent was an NGO tied to Democracia Cristiana party), incompetence (the designers of new system was university professors funtional to government who never worked in a court) etc etc The whole process of Reforma Penal was a disaster worse than Transantiago but it was covered with a wide political concensus and a huge advertising / PR campaign, in general most of people think that it was good despite the clear evidence of the so called "puerta giratoria".

But well, this billonaire fiasco who actually offers less guarantees than the old system due lacks of design (no control over fiscales, etc,) is finally showing the dark side, I hope that in the future a government was brave enough to make the necesary changes because there are every day more people concious of the failures

g~j's interest has been piqued over this thread...
tombrad2 came up with some valid factual data to dispel the myths and innuendo...
So g~j just did a wee search on the following VERY comprehensive Conace web site.
http://www.conacedrogas.cl/portal/
Very interesting...
Not only do they have excellent graphical data for Chile as a whole...
For recent use trends of Alcohol - Cocaine - Cocaine base - Ecstasy - Stimulants - Depressants - Inhalants - Tobacco...
You can search each and every region for recent drug use trends and other good info on programs and preventative efforts.

Here are the recent data for XV region...


Tends to show a decrease in cocaina total - which we might assume is the "drug of choice" for "drug addicts" who may be the perps of any "crime" in the region.
Alcohol use charts are also seen on the website...

Since we cannot attach 2 figures in one post...
g~j will attach a similar figure for comparison in the next - for RM-Stgo...

Hey allchileans...
See what your own region has for drug use... for comparative purposes...
Do your own due diligence and search out some of these data and compare regions...
Before anyone might start drawing conclusions about Arica, or any other region...
And as the two old sayings go something like -
Folks in glass houses throwing stones... and pots calling kettles black
We hope statistical info such as this will dispel presumption and fallacies about any place...
And maybe waken a few folks up about what the situation really might be.

As always... g~j will now take a break and refill their glasses with tonight's usual drug of choice

Hmmm... seems to be a significant (?) increase in cocaine and total cocaine use of late...
An increasing bunch of druggies down in Stgo way of late
Lots more folks snort'n and smok'n up South, than down north...
The good old high life in the fast lane of the big city, eh?
Lots more interesting charts where this came from...
http://www.conacedrogas.cl/portal/
Enjoy (or not) your search for accurate information about drugs in Chile.