Re: Chile and the International Economic Crisis

Postby cali_chile48 » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:26 pm

thanks for that article. philosophically, i agree with the author. we should let the corrupt business fall and rebuild from the rubble. but that's not gonna happen....at least not this time. this is good for me personally, because it will give me the time i need to get the hell out!

can we expect a mass emigration from the US soon? (next ten years?)
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Re: Chile and the International Economic Crisis

Postby eeuunikkeiexpat » Wed Sep 24, 2008 12:50 pm

As in all economic crisis of magnitude, currency controls will eventually be implemented. You may one day find it impossible to move funds outside the USA or even trade in gold and silver and even physically travel abroad in the worst case scenarios. I fear expats will continue to be viewed negatively and even with malice and scapegoated by those who could not see and/or would not plan for the rough road ahead before their bank accounts and pensions got looted and turned towards zero.

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Re: Chile and the International Economic Crisis

Postby RuneTheChookcha » Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:29 pm

TheStranger.com, WA - 1 hour ago wrote:Oh shit

Gold Seek - 3 hours ago wrote:A better title for the mortgage relief program would be the Securitized Housing Investment Trust (SHIT)


Image
oh shit..
Google News wrote:New! Get the latest news on shit with Google Alerts!
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Re: Chile and the International Economic Crisis

Postby admin » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:15 am

I found it interesting that Bush's address to the country last night seemed to almost be carried on no international news stations but CNN (I only get three though).

What really grabbed me was how naive his attempt was to explain the crisis, as if the housing market bubble burst simply because they had some bad luck in new housing starts. I understand that he was trying to explain the problems in simple terms to the American people, but it was clear in his explanation that he had no real grasp of the economics behind it all and even a sample of the all the converging factors that created the mess. It was more like he was repeating the school teachers explanation, than explaining what happened in his own words.
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Re: Chile and the International Economic Crisis

Postby MarkF » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:46 am

admin wrote:What really grabbed me was how naive his attempt was to explain the crisis, as if the housing market bubble burst simply because they had some bad luck in new housing starts.


From everything I've read, I gather that this bailout isn't because of subprime mortgages, it's about all the Credit Default Swaps (a form of derivatives) that these banks put around these mortgages, creating a whole new investment market.

For the past two years, people have said there was no way the recent subprime mortgages could be too bad. The percentage of recently issued subprime mortgages was a small percentage of the total market of outstanding mortgages. They thought the bottom of the market was a year ago. But, it was the CDSs that added leverage (and opacity), turning a moderate problem severe.

I don't understand why the government (if they can intervene in a market via a bailout) can't declare credit default swaps worthless and illegal. I guess one argument against that would be that it would cause everyone's books to be rebalanced. But, the story is, everyones' books are essentially fraudulent right now because there's no way to determine the value (or liability) of a CDS. That's why the Fed slashed interest rates Sept. through Jan. Banks weren't loaning each other money through their "overnight" service because nobody trusted anyone's stated bookkeeping. The Fed slashed interest rates to encourage them to borrow money from the Fed, and loan to each other. But, that didn't work either. Banks were afraid to borrow from the Fed's discount window because it is a public activity, and would lead to the belief they were unhealthy (when the fault was with the entire industry, and nobody would lend to anyone because nobody knew who's books were sound). The Fed had to resort to anonymous auctions of discounted money.

I can understand wanting to avoid the volatility of a pure "free market" correction. But, this bailout smells like we're salvaging derivatives and irresponsible business practices. I think the economy would do pretty well if we declared CDSs illegal, and then tookover all the banks that failed, taking over their non-CDS assets/liabilities, and auctioning them off to new participants.

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Re: Chile and the International Economic Crisis

Postby Hughjb » Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:29 pm

I found it interesting that Bush's address to the country last night seemed to almost be carried on no international news stations but CNN (I only get three though).


Doesn't surprise me, I would not believe Bush if he tells me that the sky is blue!
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Re: Chile and the International Economic Crisis

Postby admin » Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:16 pm

yea, he really screwed the country with Iraq. Basically last nights speech was another appeal to the American people that there are weapons of mass destruction on Wall Street (which this time I believe there really is), and to trust him with 700 billion blank check. No one anywhere is buying it.

I was struck by how the similar challenges of the Bush administration have tended to be like the Roosevelt administration but with an mirror image success rate and strategies.

Roosevelt:
The after Wall Street crash fireside radio address to close the banks and bailout the average American to reset the economy,
followed by Pearl harbor address after the attack rallying America to defeat an ennemy.

Bush:
Post 911 address convincing America to be defeated by an ennemy, and a stock market crash address to keep the banks open and screw the American people.

Likely a better way to say that, but you get the picture.
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Re: Chile and the International Economic Crisis

Postby Hughjb » Thu Sep 25, 2008 2:44 pm

From everything I've read, I gather that this bailout isn't because of subprime mortgages, it's about all the Credit Default Swaps (a form of derivatives) that these banks put around these mortgages, creating a whole new investment market.


In a nutshell is about everything with the subprime default being the catalyst. A lot of institutions got stuck with a whole bunch of "sophisticated financial instruments" (or BS papers) which they could not got rid of it or cover with their existing assets, and that grinded the system to a halt. Since these institutions daily operations are contingent on being able to move capital and assets at a very low interest rate they found themselves unable to borrow money at a discount rate, so they got stuck.

At the same time people lost confidence in the system and started to pull out their money out of money markets at the same time (the 1929 scenario).

So the government did two things, the first one was to provide insurance to money market accounts to stop the pulling out of funds and proposed to purchase the bad debt from the companies that got stuck with the paper in an effort to "recapitalize" the system and get Wall Street moving again.

The price that everybody is going to bear from now on, which includes people in Chile as well and all over the world is a higher cost when borrowing money.

I think.... :cry:

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Re: Chile and the International Economic Crisis

Postby cali_chile48 » Thu Sep 25, 2008 4:48 pm

i don't know anyone who trusts bush anymore, except for my 80 year old landlady with alzheimer's. i haven't been able to listen to him without feeling sick to my stomach since he announced the formation of the homeland security department. a step in the direction of fascism, to be sure.

he isn't smart enough to understand political or economic theory. he's essentially a misguided pawn who still wants to impress his father. bush and the neo-conservatives behind him have set the USA back immeasurably. there is some satisfaction is knowing that history will judge them harshly, as it should, but it is frustrating to see them enrich themselves and be so smug about it.

is the bailout really necessary? it grates against my sense of fairness to see the vipers on wall street get their hands on a trillion dollars of public money. congress is establishing some kind of oversight, but i still don't trust what they are about to do. what a scam! and yet....as a practical matter, it probably is better to keep the machine running. most of my "wealth" is tied up in a pension fund and 401k accounts....will i ever get back what i put in? i don't know anymore, but it seems better to try to minimize the scale of the depression we are in so that recovery can start in, say, 2010, instead of, say, 2015. that's the theory, anyway.
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Re: Chile and the International Economic Crisis

Postby admin » Thu Sep 25, 2008 8:04 pm

yea, when you look closely at a lot of the "toxic debt", how they put to them together has a lot in common with what people do to launder money. I can not believe that most of those derivatives don't somehow violate federal money laundering laws. The FBI is looking in to it, but I don't expect much. We all know how Worldcom / Enron investigations turned out under the Bush administration.

For many it was very common for them to take the mortgage debt, throw in things like some other stocks and bonds, convert that to a stock or bond, then convert it back to whatever, convert that back to a stock, wash it through multiple currency trades, give it a spiffy name, a triple AAA rating, and then dump it on the open market so everyone could play hot potato with it. Well, someone got burned.

Honestly not being heavily invested before, I am now starting to cherry pick and nibble a bit at the market. I have always put my money in on the heavy crashes, and always get out the first time I hear one of the talking heads on TV use "bubble" in a complete sentence. If someone has to use that word even in a hypothetical, chances are you are already at the top. I still do not think we are anywhere near the bottom however. I apply the same rules to the stock market as I do to Las Vegas Casinos. Stick to a your limit going in, play with the houses money, don't throw good money after bad (Bush missed that memo), know when to fold, and DON'T GET GREEDY.

On the more conservative side are Certificates of Deposit in Chile. They are paying around 8%. In fact I have some U.S. government bonds that I inherited that I am going to convert shortly. I honestly am questioning the viability of those U.S. bonds with the national debt load the U.S. has taken on, especially if the taxes they have to raise to pay for those bonds makes them a wash.

My real investments are things I can kick, or have to worry about kicking. My long-term investment strategy is to buy a property a year in Chile, no matter how big or small, in various areas around the country. Worse comes to worse, my investment will feed me one way or another.
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Re: Chile and the International Economic Crisis

Postby Chuck J 3.0 » Thu Sep 25, 2008 10:05 pm

I actually watched Shrubs speech last night. Comedy gold. He's completely clueless. The microphone? problems had me thinking, if they can't even do that right...... :D
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Jim Rogers Calls Paulson's Plan `Welfare for the Rich'

Postby eeuunikkeiexpat » Fri Sep 26, 2008 12:38 am

I always listen to what Jim Rogers has to say. This Bloomberg video is a must see/listen.

On an aside, I met him in Santiago on his around the world trip in his custom yellow Mercedes road machine back in 2001. Even got a ride across town in it.

Jim Rogers Calls Paulson's Plan `Welfare for the Rich'

Given his Yale background and well-known outspoken nature, I sometimes wonder if he is one of the "permitted" contrary voices of reason by TPTB. :alien:

Happy speculating and investing!
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