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New Forum Rule Consideration

New Forum Rule Consideration

Postby admin on Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:58 am

The following rule and procedures are under discussion as a method to solve the wondering thread problems without loosing thread flow.

I hear by decree as your glorious forum admin, and good friend of the purple blob:
All political threads, the World at large, and everything that has nothing to do with Chile has to be kicked to the lobby.

When threads wonder off the original topic, we should make an introductory post in the originating thread inviting everyone over to continue the breakaway subject in a new thread in the lobby or other relevant forum, and leave a link in the parent thread to the new child thread. This should work without killing flow of either discussion.


The original post this came out of:
O.k. here is the deal. Our forum threads have tended to overall develop in two forms. One are purely informational threads, that sometimes wonder off in to broader discussions. The other are more political/philosophical/historical/whatever else discussions, that sometimes wonder off in to some sort of practical information in them.

Overall the main purpose of the forum is the practical information part, secondary is the entertainment/community building value of them.

It is hard to say this thread or that topic is clearly out of bounds. I have been guilt too of taking rather dull informational threads and spinning them in to abstract talk about the world. Perhaps it is the Philosophical training and inclinations in me to spin something rather dull in to an interesting subject (or perhaps the other way around).

Seeing as the forum tradition of wondering subjects has led to some vagueness about the rules and has also left more than a few new users scratching their heads, it is time for some concrete guidelines. Still, nothing too radical.

I hear by decree as your glorious forum admin, and good friend of the purple blob:
All political threads, the World at large, and everything that has nothing to do with Chile has to be kicked to the lobby. The best way to do this, without really killing thread flow I think is to make an introductory post in the originating thread inviting everyone over to continue the breakaway subject in a new thread in the lobby and leave a link in the parent thread to the child thread.

Let's give this a try among our more established members (you know us that wonder off in all kinds of directions), and we will refine the rule through some testing. Then I will write it up and post it as a general forum policy once the kinks are worked out of it.

You see, I don't really want to kill the in depth conversations we have about the World. They do have relevance to Chile (e.g. why people come for instance, why people should stay, comparison to other places), just those ties to the subject of Chile can get fairly loose in the conversations and dilute otherwise important informational threads.

This will have to be self policing. I would also invite anyone that feels that a thread is wondering too far afield to help clean up threads by creating a new child thread topic, and leaving a link to move the conversation over to the new one. Please always leave a short explanation note of reason why.

This way, any normal user can help do the thread flow administration without needing any special access privileges. If it is sufficiently interesting the topic should live or die on its own merits. It should also help encourage people that are subscribed to one thread, to jump in on the new threads because they are alerted by the postings in the old thread they were following.

Open to comments and feed back on this.

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Re: New Forum Rule Consideration

Postby admin on Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:05 am

If some topic is sufficiently important, you can also start a new thread and then PM me to have it made sticky or a global announcement. I generally reserve global announcements for topics regarding the functioning of the forum, and perhaps emergency situations (e.g. volcanoes erupting). There are various levels however.
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Re: New Forum Rule Consideration

Postby admin on Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:13 am

I think a good guide to use would be if we are in a thread on about a particular topic, and more than three posters wonder off on to a new topic that is outside the scope of the original, then the thread should be split using the method above.

Sometimes threads wonder off for a few posts, and then come back on subject. It would not be worth starting a new topic thread.
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Re: New Forum Rule Consideration

Postby admin on Sun Jul 13, 2008 4:18 am

Please post your comments, suggestions, or nomination for modifications to this new forum policy.
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Re: New Forum Rule Consideration

Postby RWS on Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:25 am

'Sounds reasonable to me, though I personally don't mind at all leaving the present laissez faire policy in place and using "search" to find information I might want. In fact, I prefer my method: how many consistent posters -- AllChilean "citizens" -- actually try to find information by looking at title lists alone?

admin wrote:I think a good guide to use would be if we are in a thread on about a particular topic, and more than three posters wonder off on to a new topic that is outside the scope of the original, then the thread should be split . . . .

Were the proposal to become a new policy, I'd rather leave the split to administrators' discretion, on a case-by-case basis, than subject it to any hard-and-fast rule.
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Re: New Forum Rule Consideration

Postby RWS on Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:32 am

"Self-policing" is best, I think. If a discussion wanders for a bit, fine; for longer, we posters should be competent enough to be able to establish a new thread ourselves and alert the readers of the old thread to the new; we also should be responsible enough to boycott a thread irreparably highjacked by anyone too inconsiderate.

So, after a bit of thought, my desire would be to keep the present system intact, adding only an unenforced guideline for the establishment and conduct of threads. Let's keep weaving!
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Re: New Forum Rule Consideration

Postby admin on Sun Jul 13, 2008 1:12 pm

Well, I think it would be about 6 in one hand and half dozen in the other type situation. Members, with or without admin privileges could do it. Just by encouraging members to do it, we might reduce some of the time administrators would spend chasing off topic threads.

The admins, EE and myself (I am going to add some more here) can jump in and split a thread without confusing anyone too much by simply claiming a three post rule. If everyone is encouraged to do it when threads wonder off topic, hopefully everyone will get use to it fairly fast and not be surprised when a new split is declared.

I don't think it will be hard and fast rule rule, just call it more good forum manners or a custom. I am not going to ban anyone for not following it. In fact, it hopefully should reduce conflicts as members perceived "rights" to post whatever they want and freedom of speech is preserved, while preserving the integrity of the original subject. With a little luck, it should encourage more and broader conversations.

As for searching, that should still work and better. The search feature works best when a thread is more densely populated with related key terms on a subject. They will be ranked higher in the search results you get back, and as more relevant.

The link from old thread to new thread is also good for the forum search ranking. The bots follow links in content from one thread to the next easier.

I would also like to add some tools to make that easier to do in the next update. Perhaps a button that you can click and quickly split a thread in to a new topic without even giving it a lot of thought. It would be nice if we could perhaps mark a post a new color, and automatically add link to a new thread when splitting, copying the intro text and a link back in the new thread. Something that can be done without even loosing your train of thought in typing.
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Re: New Forum Rule Consideration

Postby eeuunikkeiexpat on Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:04 pm

RWS wrote:... we also should be responsible enough to boycott a thread irreparably highjacked by anyone too inconsiderate.

From the original poster's view not an appealing outcome. And for other posters with information, insight or experience who would have liked to post to a very relevant titled thread also not an appealing outcome.

admin wrote:The admins, EE and myself (I am going to add some more here) can jump in and split a thread without confusing anyone too much by simply claiming a three post rule. If everyone is encouraged to do it when threads wonder off topic, hopefully everyone will get use to it fairly fast and not be surprised when new split is declared.

:thumleft: :thumright: :thumleft: :thumright:

admin wrote:I would also like to add some tools to make that easier to do in the next update. Perhaps a button that you can click and quickly split a thread in to a new topic without even giving it a lot of thought. It would be nice if we could perhaps mark a post a new color, and automatically add link to a new thread when splitting, copying the intro text and a link back in the new thread. Something that can be done without even loosing your train of thought in typing.

:thumleft: :thumright: :thumleft: :thumright:


MORE PROMINENT SEARCH

Make that search box and button more prominent (centered, larger, like maybe where the Futu disaster donation button is, also insert in other places like on the main allchile.net index page, etc.)

POST AND POSTER CLASSIFICATION FEATURES

(1) POST RATING SYSTEM that also shows up in "Search" based on community member votes with safeguards (only registered members with a certain amount of posts and/or time on board can vote)
(2) POSTER RATING SYSTEM based on community members votes with safeguards (only registered members with a certain amount of posts and/or time on board can vote)

OTHER MINOR IMPROVEMENTS

Like the poster nationality flag mentioned in the past so we at least have instant context of a poster's viewpoint
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Re: New Forum Rule Consideration

Postby MarkF on Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:20 pm

I think the rule sounds good. I see two potential problems:

1. It's rarely clear whether something will develop into off-topic. For example,

- The sub-topic of crime arose in the mini-tour (I think by the person who started the topic). Quite a few posts occurred, by a few people, before it was deemed (by someone who contributed to that sub-topic) to have been "hijacked"

- The recent medical topic. It might not have been off-topic had eeuu simply replied "oh, yea, I see what you mean. Poor medical practice could be as bad as poor pharmacological quality for someone without my access and intellect." Instead, he took it even more off-topic, resulting in even more off-topic posts from others.

If users (or admins) have the ability to go back in a the thread to one of their posts, and can snip it into a forum topic, that would be useful.

How would the race condition be handled when two participants snip at the same time, in different places?

2. What's considered off-topic may have a clique'ish determination. I believe you mentioned someone left the forum because he couldn't cope with the predominant anti-US commentary. To me, that's an admission of an unrepresentative/imbalanced dominance of opinion (and potential "group think"). This can lead to topics being permissible as long as they conform to the dominant world view. Or, group consensus concerning what is off-topic designed to protect their world view, or punish someone who got on their wrong side.

I believe I've seen this a few times. Even, the examples in #1 above seemed to be about *me* rather than the topic itself. (It was me who hijacked the mini-tour, not others who commented on crime. It was me who went off topic in the medical topic, not the originator of the political comment.).

Perhaps it would be wise to remember what's considered general manners in real life: It's boorish behavior to discuss politics in social settings (such as parties where diverse opinions should be expected). Perhaps topics outside the lobby should be considered "social settings," and the same decorum expected (self-editing in the interest of respecting the presence of mixed opinions).

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Re: New Forum Rule Consideration

Postby MarkF on Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:34 pm

eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:(1) POST RATING SYSTEM that also shows up in "Search" based on community member votes with safeguards (only registered members with a certain amount of posts and/or time on board can vote)
(2) POSTER RATING SYSTEM based on community members votes with safeguards (only registered members with a certain amount of posts and/or time on board can vote)


That feature has a tendency to be abused on forums that tend to be clique'ish, or that attract a narrow world view (which I believe Charles has admitted allchile does). The more passionate members are likely to utilize it more. Thus the ratings aren't a reflection of all readers. It usually boils down to a determination that the opinion of more dominant posters matters more, and should be more prominent with a scoring system. That perpetuates the the narrowness of world view that a forum may already suffer from.

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Re: New Forum Rule Consideration

Postby eeuunikkeiexpat on Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:49 pm

I'd advise anyone concerned to read the above referenced examples and make their own determination of what happened, when it happened, and the "me" factor. Another post to check on is the Mac Users thread.

Then come back here and comment.

This is an English-speaking Expats in Chile forum so we have an Australian, New Zealand, UK, European, Canadian, other English speaking audience not just USA people and our tendency to dominate conversations with US-centric stuff. Expats from the USA 8, 9 out of 10 times tend to lean a certain way. Just as on any other board in the States there is a dominant political flavor and character based on the like mindedness of the gathered posters, except in this one, the ones already relocated can't be told to shut up and leave the country. That is the reality.
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Re: New Forum Rule Consideration

Postby eeuunikkeiexpat on Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:54 pm

MarkF wrote:
eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:(1) POST RATING SYSTEM that also shows up in "Search" based on community member votes with safeguards (only registered members with a certain amount of posts and/or time on board can vote)
(2) POSTER RATING SYSTEM based on community members votes with safeguards (only registered members with a certain amount of posts and/or time on board can vote)


That feature has a tendency to be abused on forums that tend to be clique'ish, or that attract a narrow world view (which I believe Charles has admitted allchile does). The more passionate members are likely to utilize it more. Thus the ratings aren't a reflection of all readers. It usually boils down to a determination that the opinion of more dominant posters matters more, and should be more prominent with a scoring system. That perpetuates the the narrowness of world view that a forum may already suffer from.

Mark

THIS IS PRIMARILY A CHILE INFORMATION FOR ENGLISH SPEAKERS FORUM NOT A POLITICAL FORUM though we do delve very much into that area.

For Chile experienced posters (the narrow minded clique) to highlight the most well-written and best posts on varying subjects is an improvement.
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Re: New Forum Rule Consideration

Postby MarkF on Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:32 pm

eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:Expats from the USA 8, 9 out of 10 times tend to lean a certain way.


Doesn't it depend on whether the expat is someone who left the US out of unhappiness (even contempt) for the country, or one who left for a job? I would say it's only true that the expat leans the same direction 8.5 times out of 10 if you limit it to the former group. Or, if that group makes up 8.5 expats out of 10 (I have no way of knowing if that's true).

I guess the question is whether the forum should be defined by the predominant "leaning" just because that's the "reality" (as you put it). That's a good question.

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Re: New Forum Rule Consideration

Postby eeuunikkeiexpat on Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:38 pm

Well this is a forum of primarily self-sponsored expats. Here by choice, some of great means most of more modest means, again by choice.

I would say the Yahoo ChileGringos group has more people there on job assignments. Those expats are a different breed, traveling in different social circles and not exactly committed to their current residence like the self-sponsored expats.
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Re: New Forum Rule Consideration

Postby MarkF on Sun Jul 13, 2008 3:43 pm

eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:Well this is a forum of primarily self-sponsored expats. Here by choice, some of great means most of more modest means, again by choice.

I would say the Yahoo ChileGringos group has more people there on job assignments. Those expats are a different breed, traveling in different social circles in person and not exactly committed to their current residence like the self-sponsored expats.


Thanks. But, is it desirable for policies and acceptable behavior to be defined by the "reality" that a certain kind of expat is here more? That could have a self-perpetuating effect. Personally I'd rather it be more inclusive of all expats (an expectation of manners based upon that desired result, not based upon "there's more of us here, so majority rules.").

That's just me. I guess it's ultimately Charles's decision. I can see legitimacy either way. I mean, I can see why those with a certain "leaning" would like an environment that caters more to world view. Nothing wrong with that.

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