Chile Forum

p.s. I'll come walk across your desert, if you come and raft my river.

Vicki, the real issue, I think, is underlying in your last post: Endesa, and the lack of credibility on the relations between government and big corporations in Chile. In my view is the same who owns the corporation, either if it is Chilean, foreign, private or state owned, none of them give us confidence that will not commit abuse, bribery, ecologic disasters and any kind of damage in total impunity, being, under the table, associated with government officials.

This is the present and real danger and I agree with fears on this matter. So, the point is, who control the corporations? it used to be the government but since they started to work in close association anything may happen.

When considering other energy sources, specifically wind, reference the story of "Cape Wind". It is a planned off shore wind farm that has been in the planning stages for years. One of the main perceptions of why it will not proceed is the visual impact and the "not in my backyard" concept.

The wind turbines used at Canela are Vestas 1.65 MW wind turbines, so about 600 turbines would be required to produce the 1000 MW that the dams would produce.

If Chilean landscape was littered with wind turbines, will people protest as it could change the landscape? change the atmosphere (noise)? Do you think people would protest wind turbines in Patagonia? The Canela wind park is Route 5 in Norte Chico and is in the middle of nothing, so not much to complain about, maybe some locals were unhappy, maybe not.

Here are some links to stories/info related to Wind turbines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Wind

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articl ... s_humming/

http://www.santiagotimes.cl/santiagotim ... 1&id=13091

All energy sources must be used, there is not just one that can fix the problem.

Diversification is the best option and this is what it appears Chile is starting to do.

This is the kind of quandry that's plagued the United States, a vast and beautiful but overpopulated and increasingly foolish country, for, quite literally now, centuries: sacrifice that natural beauty and the fragile resources, tangible and intangible, that it may contain, or place fulfillment of repressed material cravings of a people no more avaricious than the normal run of humanity on an inevitable downward slope? The United States have unevenly (and inconsistently) chosen the first solution; but so has every nation faced with a similar conundrum.

Given the reality of human nature and its operation (in Chile) within a democratic or quasi-democratic context, I doubt that Chile will do otherwise than follow the flow of human nature in the aggregate: "give us our desires, now!" In vain can Vicki or I or other foreigners urge consideration of significant self-denial in order to preserve entire a wonderful region for present contemplation and future delight -- hey, neither Chileans nor North Americans nor Chinese can even restrain their burgeoning populations! -- and, in fact, I as a foreigner am very, very hesitant even to suggest to another nation what should be considered, despite my sadly (and dearly) learned lessons.

In regards to EEUU's power outage, I am wondering if it may have been a localized event as I am in Vina plan and have not experienced any power outages since arriving in December.

Yes localized but frustrating. It is preparing me for the official rolling blackouts in the near future though.

yea, Tompkins is seriously doing something about it. He has the money and the army of lawyers.

What the government and Endesa are currently doing in the Patagonia is already pure corruption. They are approaching land owners and telling them that they have to sign the easements to build the power lines, without providing the compensation as required by the Chilean constitution.

Here is the problem with the dam. It is a truly third world solution, to a first world problem. Look at how wonderful China's new dam has gone. They are expecting that its ability to produce electricity may only last a year or two more because of the silt build up. A dam is not a permanent solution. Dams have 10 to 20 year life spans at which point the silt starts to make them unusable. NO one is building dams in the United States or Europe anymore as a real solution. In fact Europe has more or less outlawed dams. In the U.S. more are being destroyed than built every year. They are essentially considered environmental and economic mistakes. Chile is facing a crisis at a time where the technology exist to do it right. 50 years ago, yea a dam might have made practical, economic, and political sense. Chile has the advantage of not repeating those mistakes, and doing it right much cheaper than everyone else. I am fully agreed that Chile needs the energy, just it should be done on practical level not a political level.

I believe wind farms are real viable solution for Chile. The cost of production of turbines and the related technology has come down dramatically. The cost for installation and their scalability (stick a few more in), and Chiles vast areas of oceans and mountains where no people live makes a very good solution. More importantly you can get wind farms where they are needed, relatively near the population centers that require the juice. Are they ugly? yea, perhaps, but not nearly as environmentally destructive as a dam. Definitely better than a smoke stack.

On the endesa front, we have heard rumors that they are considering laying under water cables as a solution to the resistance created over the power line problem, and simply getting around Pumalin. I don't think they believe that road through Pumalin is going to be built anytime soon either.

Rook wrote:When considering other energy sources, specifically wind, reference the story of "Cape Wind". It is a planned off shore wind farm that has been in the planning stages for years. One of the main perceptions of why it will not proceed is the visual impact and the "not in my backyard" concept.

The wind turbines used at Canela are Vestas 1.65 MW wind turbines, so about 600 turbines would be required to produce the 1000 MW that the dams would produce.

If Chilean landscape was littered with wind turbines, will people protest as it could change the landscape? change the atmosphere (noise)? Do you think people would protest wind turbines in Patagonia? The Canela wind park is Route 5 in Norte Chico and is in the middle of nothing, so not much to complain about, maybe some locals were unhappy, maybe not.

Sure Rook, I understand what you are saying, and I'm not placing so much emphasis on the "look" of the alternative energy, as I am in the impact on the culture and societies that will ultimately be affected (effected? can't remember my vocab right now). I think people here in Patagonia would certainly prefer wind farms dotting the landscape as opposed to no viable rivers, and no tourist season to sustain them.

TomBrad, exactly the point I did not so eloquently make. I got bogged down in my rant, when really it's not just the foreign companies, but the home country who allows non-transparency. I hope Chile will do better, be more honest, but as it goes, who knows. I say hope, because I am not a citizen, and I really have no say. But I can support what I think is right, and especially will loudly support it because it is what my host Futans believe in.

Any country that doesn't have its own oil and is serious about not funding ugly states such as Iran or Russia should really consider nuclear energy. You don't see Canada or Australia playing the uranium card to rock the geopolitical game. Of course Gordita ruled out making a decision on nuclear during her term because, you know, it would involve actually doing her job. It's probably better though because it's hard to trust people who screwed up something relatively basic as a bus system with nuclear technology.

As far as anything energy generation out of wind/solar/tides, Chile can look at some of the things Portugal and Spain are doing, but you don't solve pressing present day problems with technology so early in its development cycle. Again, I agree with our Chilean friend from the far North! Given the energy consumed to produce solar panels in the first place, I don't even know that their use in cloudy Germany produces much net energy over their lifetime.

A few years ago I was on the Metro in Santiago, and there was a poster advertising that Chile had just acquired a super collider / centrifuge (not really sure of the difference). Not one of those big 10 mile diameter ones, but more like a washing machine type one you use for enriching uranium. I never seen another poster or heard another word about it.

I think there is a certain keep South America nuclear free agreement among the neighbors. An arms race in this neighborhood would not be good. Yea, nuclear energy does not equal nuclear arms, but the neighbors might not see it that way.

I have always wondered if the U.S. keeps nuclear arms stored here at their bases. I bet at least during the cold war and the dictatorship there was.

Otravers,

I agree wholeheartedly. I'm generally not a big fan of anything that involves French policy (sorry!), but on atomic power they are the model. Unfortunately, in the US we make decisions based on media misinformation & Hollywood hype. Add Three-Mile Island (non-event) and China Syndrome/Silkwood (bad movies with even less than usual veracity) with a gullible population and you have present-day energy policy in the US.

BTW, have a Kuchen at Kafee Klatsch for me, likely a brief walk for you. Have you been to the little Belgian restaurant near 1. & Libertad? Crazy excellent for the prices.

John Hyre

John, I left France for a reason so you won't find blanket statements in favor of French policy in my posts (quite the contrary!). Nuclear is one of the few things De Gaulle got right. Thanks for the restaurant tip, we'll check that place out.

Otravers,

From Frommers:

La Ciboulette
Cuisine Belgian, Chilean
Hours Tues-Sun 1-3:30pm and 8pm-midnight
Address 1 Norte 191-A
Phone 32/269-0084
Prices Main courses $17-$20 (£8.50-£10)
Credit cards not accepted, reservations recommended

An altogether unwelcoming facade keeps tourists away from this tiny restaurant, but La Ciboulette is a local favorite and has won various culinary awards for its home-style, Belgian-influenced cuisine. My only caveat about this place is that the owners are the kind of old-fashioned restaurateurs who seem offended if you ask to alter a dish. Nevertheless, the chalkboard menu changes seasonally so that every element is very fresh, and their wine list is quite good. The daily menu can include roasted country duck with blackberries; beef stewed in beer and ginger; or a cassoulet of scallops and shrimp, with chives and Noilly Prat.

Enjoy, let us know how it goes, we absolutely love the place.

John Hyre

admin wrote:. . . . I think there is a certain keep South America nuclear free agreement among the neighbors. . . .

I don't know of an express agreement. A quarter of a century ago, Argentina was ahead of both Israel and South Africa in developing nuclear armament but of its own volition abandoned development shortly after the return to democratic rule -- extraordinary. Nevertheless, that country is now quite sensibly beginning to move toward nuclear generation of electrical power for civil use.

Chile has not forbidding problems or veto from nuclear countries, on the contrary sense, several of my classmates in the U are now working in high posts in the electric and government related industry and they told me that the pressure from some European countries to develop a nuclear energy plant in Chile is heavy. However there are a problem of political viability, because there are many anti-nuke activist in the government of concertacion, this is the real problem: political unpopularity. Our electric-electronic school meets every year and we make seminaries, lectures and -most important than any- informal chat on some choices that are discussing now under the table such as waste nuclear material storage here in desert and such.Not to mention years that will take to develop the plant, security concerns due lack of confidence in our own technoical and scientific people.

Most important is that nuclear do not solve the main problem, who is independence: Chile has not uranium mines, nor the plants to enrichment from mine, so we are as dependent from uranium supply as we are now from Argentinian gas.

On wind power plants I had the opportunity to check a project presented for a wind farm to be built here in Arica and discuss with people who know te maths involved: it does not resist the most basic feasibility study, the cost per KW/h would be increased by a factor of 5 to 10 and only with a huge subsidy -as rich countries does- it would be possible to start such project.