Chile Forum

Yea, that is fairly typical for the fly lodges and rafting trips in the Patagonia. It is not cheap to operate that far south. Typical prices we have seen range from about $3,000 US to $8,000 US a week depending on the bells and whistles.

At the top end, we recently ran in to a group from the nomads of the sea in the Patagonia. It is a luxury yaht specially built for fly fisherman with half a dozen boats and a helicopter. Going rate we understand is something like $17,000 per person per week.

http://www.nomadsoftheseas.com/

Unfortunately, we seen their staff in action and it is bunch of under trained INCAP kids from Santiago trying to play international tour guides to people that are truly truly five star clients. Those kids think mcdonald's in Los Condes is a five star restaurant, and add to that the problems of them having absolutely no clue about the Patagonia. It was just embarrassing to watch them handle those clients.

We got to see them do a "traditional" Patagonia asado. The cook did not know how to light a camp fire, let alone cook a lamb. By the way, they brought their own lamb from Santiago. The worse was the staff getting drunk and throwing their trash around the woods and just leaving it. The staff also seemed to take this attitude like the local food was from the campo, and thus must be contaminated and dirty. So, everything must be brought in. Their version though of bringing everything in fresh was a lot of processed powered food type stuff, because they had only been trained to cook with that stuff.

Big big big business mistake.

Oh, is pretty the same here in Arica when some small luxury cruises arrive. Tour operators are a joke, service is bad, tours in the city are boring and unattractive. Most of Chilean business working in tourist area fail to put in visitor´s shoes, their approach is Chilean and they look as "attractive" things that have no attraction at all for tourists.

Wow. Sounds like a pretty dysmal tourism industry. This can't be a uniform trend throughout the country, or am I wrong.

My philosophy of tourism is you can not expect 5 star service from a staff that has never been a 5 star customer or even seen a real international 5 star tourism business. This is the same at the 3 and 4 star level. What is even worse, are people being hired to work in a tourism industry that they have never really been a tourist. Even a lot of the managers and owners most of the time have never seen a real international standard of operation. In southern Chile, nothing will kill a tourism business faster than bringing in a manager from Santiago. We have NEVER seen one really work as far as the international market is concerned.

I think one of the best things for training a staff would be to first give them a weekend in an international hotel as a tourist. I don't mean a Maimi motel 6 either (although that would still likely be better quality than a lot of "5 star" hotels in Chile). A real hotel. Send them for a weekend in Las Vegas, New York, Cancun. Without that point of reference of what the goals and objectives of the hotel or restaurant really is, you can piss money away for years on staff training and never reach that international level of service that Chile needs.

It is not the only thing, but a good start. Chile needs to stop waisting money on "consultants" firms from Santiago, and bring in real experts from places like the University of Nevada Las Vegas hotel administration and hospitality departments. Bring in people from culinary schools around the World. Chile needs the Chicago boys of tourism. Fire all those guys at senatur with their mail order degrees in tourism.

So, on the one hand many of the locals stand around and scratch their heads at the foreign owned guide businesses moving bus loads of foreigners through at $3,000 - $8,000 a week, and wonder why their business does not get that sort of action. On the other hand, you got a lot of foreign businesses (or Santiago based companies) that believe it is just easier to cut the local population out and import everything to do cost and quality control. I think the real blaim comes down on government for not really putting the effort in to it.

Argentina is kicking Chile's &*$&^ in tourism by at least a margin of 10 to 1. Argentina is promoting and providing services inside Chile that often out perform any Chilean based business, and they get to keep most of the money in Argentina as they truck tourist over the boarder for a day or two.

I honestly believe that government is just doing lip service to international tourism in Southern Chile, in favor of mining and hydro projects. Every time you move a foreign tourist through, it gets a little harder to dam that river they just caught a trout, rafted, or took a family photo. Local resistance to the environmentally destructive projects is much less if the local people's incomes are less tied to the environment. There is a night and day contrast between towns in the Patagonia with strong tourism industries and those with little to no tourism as far as their position on the dams and mines and their environmental awareness.

Another Spin on the story

Montana guides expelled from Chile

By Gazette News Services
SANTIAGO, Chile - The government has ordered expelled from Chile three Montanans accused of working illegally with a tourist visa.

The full story can be read here: http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles ... ported.txt

Cheers
Dan

Charles your right on point. The sevice in most places is dismal at best and are being trained by people that don't know what good service is. I have a friend that just returned from southern Chile flyfishing and he loved the country the food the scenery but said the help at both the tours that he took and the service was poor and the people that owned the the operation really didn't seem to care much because they had already got his money. He did say that just being in such a beautiful place made the trip.

Its really the attitude that most people in business have in Chile that is the problem. You would think that tourism money would be the best kind and the government would figure this out. However the lack of tourist can be nice too at least after they go home. We live in a small town that is really quiet but for 4 months that the tourist come , spent the money and go home happy. Seems to work well here.

Vicki and Greg Lansen wrote:It is interesting, and I look forward to Charles' article on allsouthernchile, about this issue. I do know of some companies who mostly hire out-of-country guides, but make sure they apply for the appropriate visas and permits. Then, there are those who do not. And it IS a serious bone of contention for the locals...those companies who do the all-inclusive, tout the environment and local concerns, who contribute virtually NOTHING to the communities around them. Communities who have for generations been the guardians of the environment and beauty they (the tour companies) now make gazillions off of. So, onward Charles, looking forward to seeing the article.

I'm quoting myself because I have witnessed two "all-inclusive" adventure companies here in the area this past week purchasing entire pickup truck loads of supplies from local businesses. So to be fair, I'm not wholly informed. I just know that quite a few locals don't appreciate "some" of the companies not using local resources. I can be quite the bleeding-heart patsy sometimes, so I should reserve judgment until I'm completely sure.

Not at all. There are some very good companies in the Patagonia. The ones that do it right, do it very right and make a lot of money in the process. Yea, there is more than a bit of art to using the local economy efficiently and reliably, but like everything in Chile once you get the swing of things it is possible. In the end their overhead goes down dramatically because buying local in the Patagonia even for basic stuff can save 30% or more over trucking something in.

The real bad ones service wise, environmentally, and giving back to the local economy are often Santiago owned business ventures.

Still there are lot of companies that get paid outside the country, and never repatriate the money to Chile let alone the local economy.

Hi Charles & company. I'm new here, and enjoy your forum a lot - thanks for all the valuable information, and well-informed opinions, too.

I've followed the gringo fishing guide deportation issue, including reading a fairly detailed article in Diario Aysen. I wonder if you or others could help me understand a couple points:

You mentioned you had heard that these guys entered the country on tourist visas, then had a friend present a work contract, from which they would apply for a work permit. At the end of the year, they would cancel the process. What would have been the proper procedure? What kind of visa would have been more appropriate? (a reminder: they are business owners, flying down to Coyhaique for 4-5 months to bring clients to their lodge)

And what is the proper procedure and visa requirements for a person who is merely a seasonal fishing guide? One who comes to Chile from the US for 3-4 months, and works for a legally established business in S. Chile? Are the requirements different that those above?

Thanks,

Well here is the short answer. If you are running a legitimate business inside Chile, then you need a legitimate company, which means someone must be a legal representative of the company that has permanent residency or is a Chilean citizen. Tourism is regulated under IVA tax rules.

The guides can be hired by the company on temporary work visas by the company for any length of time. Temporary work visas are fairly easy to get, and in some parts of the country amount to no more than a mail in form with a copy of a contract. Someone however, in a fully foreign operation, needs to stick around and get their residency to start a legal business.

Everyone needs to pay taxes. The IRS in Chile knows all and sees all. Notice the number of pages on the forum devoted to the difference between a RUT and a RUN number. The number is for the most part the same, and it is everywhere in the system. I get asked for my RUT at the pharmacy going to buy aspirin, or a cell phone, or whatever in Chile. Don't play games with the IRS in any country, the one in Chile has its act together better than most countries in the World.

But here is the catch 22 of what is going on. Under Chile's laws all income generated outside the country is taxable for businesses, and at the end of the year they are suppose to repatriate that money to Chile, declaring it and so on. That is the official rule.

Well, we asked about this at the IRS recently and the lady told us not to worry about it. Chile was not going to go try and audit your foreign sources of income. Technically it is a crime, practically it is one of those how you going to prove it problems sufficiently difficult to enforce that very few Chileans or foreigners bother with it for small operations. That is still not the same as outright never paying taxes.

I think the problem is that foreigners working here and foreign business owners here have taken that to also mean they do not need to follow any of the other business rules. So, to avoid paying taxes, dealing with the immigration, they never set up a proper business structure or issue the IVA receipts at all or on a very limited basis. This is where they are going over the line in breaking all kinds of laws that are very well integrated and regulated.

They are well regulated because Chileans don't like paying taxes either if they can get away with it. Very closely tied to the tax issues are your labor laws, health permits, and so on. They are all tied together in Chile. You can not really cut corners on one without cutting corners on some other laws or regulations. So, I think that is the core of the problem with foreigners simply not understanding or appreciating just how integrated Chile's system is on so many different levels. This might be a developing country, but it is not Guatemala.

You also can not just go out and hire any lawyer off the street corner. I think this is another area that a lot of foreigners get themselves in trouble. Even if they hire a lawyer, they hire lawyers with no experience in the area they need. Say, a local lawyer out of Puerto Montt that mostly has only done contracts since law school. Dealing with foreigners is fairly specialized area, and everyone has a different set of problems particular to their circumstances. Most lawyers do a lot of contracts, perhaps go to court once in a while, and there are plenty that will just tell you what you want to hear especially if they can not really communicate with their clients anyway. How many fully English speaking lawyers are there south of the Bio Bio river (region IX) in Chile that can speak any competent level of legal English to explain some really complex and delicate legal issues in terms of the legal traditions the foreigners come from (e.g. EU vs Common Law)? I only know one.

Now lots of people play games with this, or don't fully go do everything, but the guys in this case really really pushed the limit.

That said, it is rather surprising how many foreign owned tourism businesses are doing it in Southern Chile. This last week we caught wind by rumor and other sources of about half dozen of them walking the line, and we are not really looking for them. I get the impression this high profile bust was in part a warning shot for all the guys doing it to cleanup their act.

I don't think Chile wants to drive all the foreign tourism businesses out of Chile in any way, just don't get abusive about it. Chile overall is fairly forgiving in the sense of giving lots of slack to foreigners starting businesses. A lot of the government offices and officials we work with for our clients are very understanding once we explain the situation, and will do things like wait for some paperwork while another office is clearing some other paperwork; but, you got to work with the system not ignore it.

What is the worst that can happen, even when leaving the country, to somebody on an expired visa if he/she is not working and can’t easily do the so-called “visa run”?

El Zorro wrote:What is the worst that can happen, even when leaving the country, to somebody on an expired visa if he/she is not working and can’t easily do the so-called “visa run”?

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Visa runs to Argentina are simple, cheap, fun and pleasurable. If you are not working, what's the problem with them?