Chile Forum

RWS wrote:Now I begin to feel old as well as outnumbered. In my childhood, in the 1950s and '60s, such confusion did not exist, except, perhaps, among immigrants. Only some time after both American global pre-eminence and the country's largely positive image abroad began to fade did some (fortunately, not all) Americans begin to call themselves "African" or "Irish" instead of what they are: American.

Interestingly, one of the most insistently American persons I know is an aged, articulate woman who is the daughter of immigrants.

RWS, if I may, I'd like to add one more "youngster's" perspective to the one jalundberg offered. My own childhood was in the 1970s/80s and I can remember the controversy that erupted among Afro-Americans (my own ethnicity) when activists launched a major drive to abandon "black" and use the term "African-American." As I look back on it, I understand why they felt it necessary.

In contrast to your own experience, there are a number of ethnicities who until very recently were simply not allowed (by the dominant culture) to be "Americans" in any meaningful sense of the word. The "American Dream" was off-limits to millions. If your attempts to engage in ordinary American activities such as voting or sitting at a lunch counter are met with firehoses and police beatings, then it stands to reason that "Well, hmm, maybe I'm not really an American after all..." In that context, firmly embracing one's ancestral identity becomes an acknowledgement of reality: that you are viewed by your countrymen more as a permanent outsider -- a sort of resident alien -- than anything else.

Other groups faced similar sentiments of rejection by the mainstream culture: Cajun schoolkids in Louisiana being beaten by schoolteachers when they were overheard speaking French; Japanese-Americans of American birth and citizenship being forced into concentration camps after Pearl Harbor. Even the right to do what any adult Chileno takes for granted -- marry any other adult, consenting Chilean citizen of the opposite gender -- is something that Americans couldn't enjoy until 1967; only then did we overturn numerous state laws prohibiting whites from marrying blacks or Asians.

So it's useful to recall the severe emotional trauma and internal divisions that fueled the growth of American "identity politics" in the first place.

Chile, on the other hand, seems to have racism just like all societies, but also has avoided the trap of using race as a fundamental basis for organizing society and conferring rights, benefits and privileges. At least that's my impression so far.

Myles, one of the greatest appeals that Chile holds for me is the comparative near-absence of the chief besetting sin (or so I see it) of the United States, racism. Of course, racism exists in Chile, just as it does in every country that is not entirely homogeneous (Iceland alone might escape that affliction!); I remember my father's tour of duty in Ethiopia when I was eleven and twelve years old . . . but that's another story, another continent. It's generally true, too, that the more different in color and features that a person is from the societal norm, the greater the discrimination against him.

But, though the contrast between the American ideal and American practice makes this affliction the more striking here, in the States, the plight of American blacks was not generally so stark as it might in retrospect now appear. "Miscegenation", for example, was no crime in my state, not even in colonial times, and the franchise had been extended to non-whites here since the Revolution. These facts and many others may form the basis for most of my black friends' and acquaintances' disdain of the factional (and because of the increasingly hybrid nature of America, often inaccurate) labelling of "African-American". But, then, most of my closest friends were born before the 1970s.

Finally, I do not write from a perspective of unassailable privilege, by any means. My own experience, though not relevant to this thread or to Chile, has instead been one of loss.

RWS wrote:Myles, one of the greatest appeals that Chile holds for me is the comparative near-absence of the chief besetting sin (or so I see it) of the United States, racism....

Yes, I find this intriguing as well. With the exception of the situation of the Mapuche, Chile appears (to an outsider like me) to be much more progressive on racial issues.

RWS wrote: But, though the contrast between the American ideal and American practice makes this affliction the more striking here, in the States, the plight of American blacks was not generally so stark as it might in retrospect now appear....

Well... yes and no. Much depended on where you lived. As you suggest, there was definitely regional variation in the level of discrimination. For example, one of my parents attended school at the University of California at Berkeley, and did so at a time when segregation laws would have prohibited doing the same thing at the University of Alabama. Although I haven't read the book myself, I understand that Gunnar Myrdahl's "American Dilemma" basically described the USA of the 1940s as a caste-like society -- similar to the way we view India today.

In any event, I'm glad that those ugly winds of history didn't blow in Chile's direction.

Our world is suffering from heatstroke...too many people and lesser resources..if china and india goes the way of japan and US consumer model..our world will be stripped dry..
So where does the Europeans and Asians go as they screwed up their native countries..where else but America?
Africa ? forget it though they used english as their national language but the africans en masse have too many domestic problems like poverty, violence and HIV..
There's simply no more new world left for a new kind of society to take shape...mankind has run their last leg.

..and time is runnning out in search of a more sustainable model of growth

I'm in sad agreement with your assessment, Asean. Yet we needn't reach the end of time so soon. Similar views were current among the clerisy of the Western Roman Empire in the late 300s and the 400s, and the world didn't cease to bear the burden of human beings: we simply suffered the couple of centuries of the Dark Ages, then after a passage of a millenium or so recovered to the previous level of civilization.

(In case my tone of voice and facial expressions don't come through the printed words -- and I don't care to employ "smiley faces" -- I'm being cynical, both sincere and critical of us humans for the mess we've made.)

amyle002 wrote:. . . . With the exception of the situation of the Mapuche, Chile appears (to an outsider like me) to be much more progressive on racial issues.

There always will be racism. It's human nature to band together in resentment against or deprecation of others, especially when one feels threatened himself. So, yes, there is some racist feeling against the Mapuche and other indigenes; but (in part, I think, because the overwhelming majority of Chileans, perhaps more than ninety percent, are themselves mestizos) that racism seems to be less than the racism which formerly existed in many of the United States.

Interestingly, the neo-Nazi movement in Chile draws much of its strength from parts of the population more Indian than white. Racist appeal, such as it is, doesn't seem to be dependent upon one's own racial make-up.

. . . . Much depended on where you lived. As you suggest, there was definitely regional variation in the level of discrimination. . . .

And societal variation as well. For example, well-educated distant cousins of mine, white Virginians, Republicans at a time when nearly all racists were Democrats, strongly opposed governmental discrimination on the basis of race during Jim Crow; regrettably, their political power (and that of others like them) was limited to the ballot box and letters to editors, so Virginia, the South, and the country as a whole was obliged to suffer the trauma of violent readjustment.

I understand that Gunnar Myrdahl's "American Dilemma" basically described the USA of the 1940s as a caste-like society -- similar to the way we view India today. . . .

That the book did is true. I wasn't alive during the '40s, and my studies of the period are limited (my post-graduate work was in nineteenth-century American history, though when I worked as an historian I was obliged to concentrate on the twentieth), but I understand from other historians and from older friends and relatives that the thesis, outside the Deep South, is faulty.

I was surprised to see some foreigners from thailand wants to make the move to Chile...Farangs are likeable in thailand by the thai girls and thai hospitality is well known..
But thailand is not south korea or japan...or even taiwan or singapore...
Many thai girls sell their bodies and it's been said that when you think of thailand...it's sex and rice exports?Quite sad that a people with much potential wanted to remain in that status quo..
Not to say other countries like Japan do not have a sex industy and culture...just that when the country is poor and easygoing, you get targeted

Just to let u guys know that the situaition in myanmar cyclone and china earthquake getting worse...
International help is rejected in burma and china resources seems to be stretched dealing with the catastrophe.
For those folks down here in America north or south who help. thanks

Asean, help given by the ordinary American citizen is one of the best traditions of the United States. As you may easily see in international indices, no other nation comes close (tax-based assistance through governments is another matter, of course). Even with the present, severe economic difficulties, private American sources have already furnished in excess of a hundred million dollars' worth of aid to China, whose debtor we are to the tune of trillions (as a sidenote: when America suffered from Hurricane Katrina, no aid, I think, came from China, not even partial forgiveness of debt -- not that anyone should give assistance only in reciprocity).

RWS, China is a comm regime no matter how rich she may be now..
a)Communist govt is rich and powerful, most chinese there are not
b)Commie ideology make ppl less interested in humanitarian work
In regards of forgiveness of debt and katrina help, look at point a) and b)

I quite agree, Asean. I was merely being a bit sarcastic.

The way mankind is moving towards is mass dieoff...too much vested self interest and too little real co operation between leader and people.
Earth has a way of dealing with cancer and I'm afraid men are the cancerous cells and not going to turn benign anytime soon

Asean wrote:. . . . Earth has a way of dealing with cancer and I'm afraid men are the cancerous cells and not going to turn benign anytime soon

A grimly amusing metaphor.

One hope is, I think, less dependence upon government. And less government. Go, classical liberalism!

eeuunikkeiexpat wrote:Louis, you cannot accurately comment on this subject unless you have really traveled to where Koreans are 100% outsiders in most every sense of the word.

I will trump that and say that you cannot accurately comment on this subject unless you have really LIVED to where Koreans are 100% outsiders in most every sense of the word AND have really lived where Koreans are 100% locals in most every sense of the word.

It's difficult to get an accurate impression of any group without seeing them both in and out of their natural habitat. I fit in on both sides.

Yes, I lived in a small town in North Dakota where there was just a single Korean family. Yes, I lived in Korea. Yes, I lived in Mexico City as its Korean community was starting to grow. In fact I taught English tutorials for the children of Korean LG executives. Yes, I am living in a place with a growing Korean population.

I also think it's impossible to comment on a social group as a whole by just observing a few members of the group from a distance.

OK granted you may trump on real life living circumstances but you also can't generalize this to Chile. I ask again, 20+ years, where is the Korea town? Why are Koreans out marrying to Chileans? Could there be some modifying influence that not even Mexico has at work here?

Good day.