Chile Forum

In my searches for things Chilean I continue to come upon stories and articles dealing with the killings that happened under the administration of Pinochet and I find myself being utterly repulsed by what happened.

Many of the killings were done in a manner not unlike those that happened under the Nazi's. Brutal. Devoid of any ounce of humanity. How many Chileans managed to sink so low as to participate in the atrocities that happened is beyond me.

And to top it off the Army declared amnesty for itself in recent times, making it virtually impossible to bring those with blood on their hands to justice! Despite the Chilean government having changed hands from the dictatorship of Pinochet to a democracy, the Chilean military continues to maintain a strong presence in Chilean politics and will not let go (believe it or not the Armed forces have the right under Chilean law to appoint a certain amount of Chilean senators among other privileges!). The Chilean government does not have complete control over the Chilean military even to this day.

What disgusts me to the core is that criminals who killed fellow Chileans at will, not unlike the Gestapo of Nazi Germany, live and move and continue to exist in the midst of Chilean society, as if nothing ever happened. I find that utterly disgusting!

It would be as if Nazi's Gestapo members, were given amnesty and continued to live and exist in the midst of Germany. Enjoying their lives while having left countless thousands suffering the loss of husbands, fathers, and brothers.

I know this may not be a popular subject matter but I think it is important for anyone thinking of moving to Chile to read up on what happened during the Pinochet years and to understand the mechanisms in Chilean society that to the present day make it difficult if not impossible to bring killers to justice.

It is a rotteness at Chile's core that must be dealt with!

Here is just one account I read of today...

...I was never able to put José in touch with journalist associations in the U.S. because a month after he wrote, at the edge of dawn on September 8, 1986, the "Special Personnel"--as they used to call themselves--came for him once again. They dragged him outdoors in his pajamas, and took him away in a van as his wife watched helplessly. It was around 5:00 AM.

At dawn these state-paid kidnappers stopped in the outskirts of Santiago, and walked towards a wall that was along the road. Some people whose houses faced the wall heard the van and peeked through the windows. They later declared that they saw a group of armed plainclothes policemen who took a man out of the van. The men shouted at him, insisting that he keep his pajama shirt over his head. They put him against the wall and hit him, forcing him to kneel and threatened him not to look around. Then one of the men put a machine-gun to the back of his head and pulled the trigger. Thirteen bullets were shot into the back of his head. All this happened ten blocks from his brother's house, who had no idea that the horrific scene was taking place.

José Carrasco Tapia left three sons, his wife, and a legacy of brave journalism. Now, the people in the neighborhood where he was killed have built a shrine and keep flowers and lighted candles in it at all times. He used to live in that neighborhood when he was a boy. Now people come to pray and to ask him for favors. My friend has become a saint.

José Carrasco's widow and sons, and many of the relatives of the thousands of victims have never been able to bring the perpetuators to a civil court and try them. This basic democratic right has been denied by the Chilean justice in a "pacted democracy."

The above quote can be found inside the article found at...

http://isla.igc.org/Features/Chile/chile2.html

Carlos

It is horrible. There is no excuse; but there are explanations. In an attempt to explain in part, here are my thoughts on what you've written (numerous posts elsewhere in this forum contain others' thoughts, including TomBrad's and El Puelche's).

I was very, very young (at least, in terms of wisdom or maturity!) when Allende was elected by a large minority of Chilean voters. It wasn't long before we (I am American, but with a fair number of Chilean kinsmen) began hearing stories that echoed those that had come out of eastern Europe in the years when the invading Soviet Union imposed communism upon those countries: contrived and stratospheric inflation; shortages even of such basic goods as food and clothing; forced and virtually unrecompensed nationalization of farms and businesses. Middle-class housewives gathered in the streets of Santiago to protest the shortages and were forcibly repressed by a government that increasingly was a government of a single man. No wonder that the Congreso asked the military to restore democracy, or that a patriotic military answered the call!

Of course, we all know now how matters progressed after September 11, 1973. Being ignorant then, I began to question the benefits of the Chilean military's "restorative" efforts only after the murder in 1976 of a Chilean exile by the DINA in downtown Washington, D.C., a few miles from where my parents then lived. The recent revelations of Pinochet's personal and familial corruption wiped away my last favorable thought of the man, although I acknowledge that the foundation for current Chilean economic prosperity was laid during the decade and a half of the dictatorship.

The past can't be undone nor fully expiated by human means, but more can be done than has yet been attempted (concerning which, I'll note that as of a few months ago the military no longer will have unelected senators in the Congreso). It's instructive, I think, to look at what has been done in Germany (which, before Hitler's assumption of power, had been one of the most welcoming to Jews, who respected a German Jew as far more refined and admirable than others) -- sincere apologies, huge payments to survivors and to Israel, etc. -- or South Africa -- a national commission to uncover the truth about crimes under apartheid, punish, and rehabilitate (similar commissions exist in both Chile and Argentina but don't seem to have been given much power nor to have accomplish much). By contrast (though not totally apt, as its crimes were committed less against its residents than against other nations), Japan has yet to apologize fully for or even acknowledge its crimes against China and Korea, among others, and still suffers from the bitter resentment of those nations.

I might guess that real confession and real forgiveness, both necessary for the healing of the land, would require some sort of quasi-governmental commission along those lines. Also, reform of Chilean governments might help to ensure against a repetition: a weaker presidency and stronger congress, but, overall, a government that is not dominant in Chilean life. Ultimately, though, change must come from and within each individual person.

Carlitos...you are a fool, and I mean it in its strongest Biblical definition. I already mentioned that you are a shill so we don't need to get into that. I could write a lot more about this but its a waste of time. You sound like you are 12 years old and you need a nap.

RWS...I apprecaite your point of view although I don't agree. I think that the political, social and cultural realities in Chile are found between the lines....the problems and issues at hand that might be simple in other countries are simply hindered by the problems and issues that have come before and are compounded...Chileans do their best by filtering it all through wine, poetry and endless disscusions...the truth is found by carefully reading between the lines.

Charles...I am surprised at your flippant and quick appraisal. You have too much experience in Chile to say what you have said. Your analysis is incomplete and imature.

P out.

.

Maybe a better subject: "I am disgusted by what I HAVE READ it happened under Pinochet!"

el puelche wrote:. . . . I think that the political, social and cultural realities in Chile are found between the lines . . . .

Perhaps this is true of all societies. I know that I was a bit taken aback when another AllChilean recently stated that my own, American, was not at all what on the surface it appears to be -- in contrast to the Chilean!

It is not my intent to discuss the pros and cons of any political doctrine, but surely none can dispute or condone these illegal actions by the US and the horrible ramifications of these same actions.
I wonder what would be the response by the US to an outside intervention in US politics.
The election of GW Bush has not been exactly been in the best intrest of the US or the world. His policies could not exactly be described as democratic (more facist leaning) yet no other country intervened.The people of the US had spoken and their decision is to be respected just as the decisions of all countrys should be.
Perhaps herin lies the problem with the US and its policies.

Remember El P you can justify any thing you want in your own mind at least.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MTDbclD ... re=related

el puelche wrote:Carlitos...you are a fool, and I mean it in its strongest Biblical definition.

My dearest el puelche....calling someone a fool does not make them so and certainly does not encourage worthwhile discussion around the topic at hand. If you are not willing to engage in intelligent conversation regarding the subject of this thread perhaps it would be the better part of wisdom and tact to not say anything at all, don't you think?

...I could write a lot more about this but its a waste of time. You sound like you are 12 years old and you need a nap.

You are not adding anything to a discussion of the topic el puelche. What's worse is that you have not helped me out of my "foolishness" by sharing with us your insight into these things.

All you have done is come into the thread with a high and mighty attitude calling me a fool, no better than a 12 year old, and that I need a nap LOL.

RWS...I apprecaite your point of view although I don't agree....

A much more constructive approach to intelligent discussion don't you think?

Charles...I am surprised at your flippant and quick appraisal. You have too much experience in Chile to say what you have said. Your analysis is incomplete and imature.

Oops! Back tracking again. To name calling and insults rather than constructive discussion.

I don't know what your deal is el puelche but if you are going to call me a fool in the truest Biblical sense may I suggest that you take the speck out of your own eye before trying to take the speck out of the eyes of others?

Carlos

tombrad2 wrote:Maybe a better subject: "I am disgusted by what I HAVE READ it happened under Pinochet!"

Yes, you are right Tom. Come to think about it that would have been a better subject to this thread. Perhaps what I have read has not given me a balanced view of what actually happened.

To be sure there are always two sides to things but as a Christian, no matter what happened under Allende or Pinochet's rule, there is no justification for the shedding of innocent blood.

Carlos

admin wrote:I don't have times to get in to it all, but I hope you are reading in Spanish the more recent news regarding the constitutional reforms, the prosecutions of the people involved, and so on.

Good advice Charles. I will try to read up in Spanish on more current news. My knowledge is still quite imperfect...I realize that. I started this thread as a means of expressing my disgust at what I was reading without any intention to say that my take on the situation was completely accurate or the truth, and nothing but the truth regarding the topic at hand.

First, I am all for stringing up the military members that participated in it; but, Chile was not Nazi Germany (inspite of the tastless german dress uniforms that they still where).

I agree that Chile was not Nazi Germany Charles. No question of that. My point was only that some of what happened was the equivalent of what the Gestapo did. I was referring to rounding people up, shooting them indiscriminantly, and so forth.

Incidentally I think the German dress uniforms look fantastic .

The English history books make the left sound like the poor passive jews that wanted to be left alone. There was a very active civil war going on inside Chile. You don't read about the bombings by the left (the word communist or socialist here is misleading) and other activities. The left never had a chance however to form an effective fighting force.

I will have to try and read things with a grain of salt with a view to achieving a more balanced picture of what actually happened than I presently have. What I have read in various places has indeed made the left sound...well...rather innocent of wrong doing.

Allende got elected democratically...he began to make reforms to help the poor...the Chilean ruling class and the military didn't like his reforms and in an effort to hang on to what they had...they stormed the Presidential palace and took power. Then Pinochet started systematically and brutally killing and/or exiling those in opposition. Mind you that is the impression left on me from various things I have read.

I must take into account that much of what I have read has been written by leftist Chileans in exile. Though I have no reason to doubt what they have said in regard to specific instances of killing I must also bear in mind, I think, that there may be much that is missing from such a leftist perspective.

This is no way excuses the tactics used against them, but you would likely not be as shocked if you read about say the United States capturing and torchering terrorists that bombed the power grid in the United States?

While I too would say that there is no excuse for what was done I must also bear in mind that the context in which such things were done is an important factor to understand.

Mainly I have read of what happened. Instances of killings, suppression of free speech, and so forth. I have read little of anything about what it was like in Chile under Allende or where the country may have ended up if he had been allowed to institute all the reforms he had in mind.

I seem to remember hearing from my dad, who has passed away but who was a great supporter of Pinochet that Allende was amassing small armories in residential homes with a view to radically and violently forcing changes upon the people of Chile...among other things. Don't know how accurate that is but I think I remember my dad saying something about that once.

The military got a fairly final internal reform when Bachelet was head of the Military. Yes, one of the victims later became the head of the military, and is now president. The military formally apologized to her for her own torcher and the assassination of her father (former head of the airforce) in Argentina.

Such changes are wonderful to hear!

There is a lot more to this. You need to spend some time talking to people about their own experiences under the dictatorship, spend a lot more time following the news archives over those years and the years since.

Good advice Charles. When and if I make it to Chile I will definitely pick the brains of my extended family group on this subject. I wish Chileans were more predisposed to interact over email so that I could discuss these issues with my extended family more but for now...I guess I will have to continue to settle for discussing some of this with you gringos and the occasional Chilean who shows up on this forum .

Carlos

RWS wrote:It is horrible. There is no excuse; but there are explanations...

Thanks very much for helping to explain the background of some of what happened RWS. Much appreciated.

My main concern is that those who committed acts of brutality and murder be brought to some measure of justice, not just as a worthy end in and of itself - which it is - but more importantly for the future, so that in some small but meaningful way (small in view of the atrocities that were committed against many), Chile will not be harmed or hindered by being divided in heart if not in practice due to a great many Chileans having a great deal of resentment and bitterness toward other Chileans over what happened. The wounds must heal completely if Chile is to continue to make progress into a bright future.

...Ultimately, though, change must come from and within each individual person.

A valid point RWS. None of us can force others or a society to change against it's will but we certainly can make right choices for ourselves. There is very little true justice in this life given that most countries do not abide by the standard of justice outlined in the Bible - whoever sheds man's life by man shall his life be shed. In that sense sometimes those who have been wronged can only move forward through unilateral forgiveness of those who did the wrong leaving ultimate judgement of the wrongdoer to God.

Still...it helps I think when a people make attempts - real and meaningful attempts - to right or otherwise acknowledge wrong doing by the conviction and punishment of wrong doers. I only hope that such real and meaningful attempts will happen if they have not already.

Establishing commissions and the like to study and draw conclusions is a good first step to be sure but if such commissions do not ultimately lead to convictions and appropriate sentences, they do little good.

Carlos

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Carlos,

Things are not nearly so simple as portrayed by any English publication, written or verbal, that I have ever seen. Specifically, everything I've seen written in English is very friendly to the left at the expense of facts. Why? Because this sort of comparatively dry writing (e.g., history, poli- sci) is pretty much exclusive to university people and reporters....and unfortunately, university and media have long-since out-McCarthy'ed the Senator from Wisconsin & purged their ranks of intellectual diversity. Try getting a job in University humanities field after admitting to being a <gasp!> - Republican. The result: A consistently leftist worldview that permeates everything those people do (Example - the move "Missing", agitprop at its finest). Witness what you've read about Chile so far. If you are interested in some Spanish titles that give the other side's perspective, I can cull through my library to find them. Another way to get some perspective - talk to Chileans IN Chile. A disproportionate percentage of the Chilean diaspora tends left, as they were the ones who thought it advisable to leave Chile, so their average opinion will be skewed. "Average" opinion changes once you are there. A very large plurality (40 - 46% or so) did and still do support Pinochet.

A few pointers, from a guy who, unlike university leftists and press pinkos, won't dessemble on his on politics (I'm fairly libertarian on most domestic issues, fairly "hawkish" on foreign policy and thought Ronald Reagan was one of our best presidents), which allows you to take my bias into account:

1) In terms of body-count, Communists/Marxists make Hitler look like a gifted amateur. The prospect of their taking over total power in Chile rightly frightened many people into thinking they would be up agianst a wall;

2) As Tom Brad (and several Chilean publications) correctly notes elsewhere on this site, Allende had < NO EMAIL > 30% of the vote on his own and won because one of the parties threw their < NO EMAIL > 30% vote over to him. He (and his allies, whom he was unable, perhaps unwilling, to control) then started to take his "mandate" and radically transform Chile's long established political norms, with the stated goal of creating a Marxist state.

3) Allende's govt, as noted by Tom Brad, was also very selective about enforcing laws, allowing illegal expropriations to occur on a wide basis. FYI, the act of expropriation (and the counter-reaction), also known as "theft", is generally a violent act. Avoiding such violence is one of the primary reasons we have government (at least under classic Lockean social contract theory). What Allende couldn't get via a pretence of law (transformation to Marxist state), he was willing to obtain via extra-legal, violent means. Any chascone a$$hole wearing a “Che” T-Shirt could, and did, walk in and start making demands, such as, this house is too big, you are getting some campesinos as new co-owners, you can only keep these two rooms, your daughter is very attractive, etc.

4) Allende killed the economy. There was an initial "boom" based on truly massive increases in spending, which spending was in fact “eating the seed corn”. Afterwards, massive inflation & shortages occurred. Similar to USSR, people connected with ruling party could literally get to the front of the line, while others would wait in line all day and get nothing. To this day, my father in law rages that he could not get milk for my then infant wife, and that the only trouble he has ever had with the law was with Allende’s goons. You didn’t think I’d marry into a family of Commies, did you? It got so bad that the women were marching in streets, banging the empty pots & pans. Hungry people who are used to not being hungry & see others who are "connected" doing fine get violent.

5) The MIR and others were arming up. Weeks long visits by Castro and gift of AK-47 by same to Allende were not exactly positive signs. Remember, we were in the collectivist 70’s, when freedom was on the retreat and smelly, Birkenstock-wearing gringos in Ponchos & Che T-Shirts were showing up in Chile to help encourage the same results as achieved in Eastern Europe….and soon, SE Asia, with all of the blood-letting that implied. The threat of total Marxist takeover was very, very real.

6) Legislature asked the military to step-in, I will leave the details of that (including foolish threats by a popular socialist senator that frightened others in Senate & military) to your reading. There were Senators and officers’ wives scattering chicken feed in front of military bases….Chilean military had (and I think still has, to a large degree) a strong Prussian tradition of being apolitical…..but when things get bad enough, military dictatorship seemed (and ultimately, was) less bad.

7) Yes, Pinochet whacked < NO EMAIL > 3,000 people & disappeared about the same number, with more being tortured. I’m sure some of them were innocent. Most of them were not. The reason the Leftists cry is that the apparatus of their beloved God, The State, was turned on them. Evidently, being on the barrel end of a gun isn’t nearly so "romantic" as having one’s hand on the trigger. I have ZERO tears for the Communists, Marxists and MIR people who Pinochet killed. Zero. They got what they and their brethren are only to happy to dish out. Same goes for Che.

In my opinion, Pinochet kept Chile from going into civil war. For a frame of reference, El Salvador (where my mom’s side of the family is from), was utterly destroyed by a vicious civil war – one where the Left and the Right were indistinguishable, both being utterly savage in the extreme. In a country whose population is < NO EMAIL > 1/3 of Chile’s, 75,000 died and the country was left in ruins. 6,000 or so dead Leftists (mostly) is a much “less bad” (as opposed to better) result. I only wish that El Salvador had had a Pinochet, several of my relatives might still be alive. And the country might even be a place where one would want to live, like, say, Chile.

9) Pinochet turned the county around economically. Ultimate testament to that fact – all of the left-leaning governments since he left have tampered very little with his economic model. The stability and prosperity that attracts many expats to Chile were no accident. Would it have been ideal to get the same results in a liberal democracy? Sure. But we do not live in an ideal world, and any real chance for liberal democracy died for a time once Allende pushed his plurality of votes into an extra-legal transformation into a Marxist state.

10) Pinochet stepped down. How many dictators, left or right, do that? Ever? Bueller? Bueller?.....

The guy wasn’t perfect. Power corrupts, and he was no exception. On the whole, his dictatorship was as good as a dictatorship could be, and occurred when other options were likely to fail and lead to civil war. On the whole, Chile was better off for having had him. Next time some Che-T-Shirt wearer (read: publicly proud of holding a philosophy similar to, and much deadlier than, Nazi-ism) wants to talk about Pinochet, ask them when Castro will step down, how the people of Cuba live (health of the average guy in Cuba is lousy, Mr. Moore, which is why you do not go there except to make mendacious films), how many died there under his lash and how many political prisoners lounge in his dungeons TODAY. Certainly, human rights abuses are relevant in a discussion of Pinochet – but a discussion limited to that wouldn’t begin to tell the whole story.

John Hyre, open about his bias