Re: I am disgusted by what happened under Pinochet!

Postby Atlantis » Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:36 am

I am relatively new and just catching up on a lot of threads. I am Chilean born and have lived in the US, Brazil, UK and now Australia; all with my childhood family and years later with my husband and children.

I remember the coup in Chile very well as I was in my early teens and for many years had nightmares and even went into depression after the events of the same day on a different year, 2001. Although my family was never directly involved in politics on either side and were not affected by kidnappings, murder or torture, we did have friends and acquaintances who were unfortunate to suffer under the Pinochet regime. But, I am under no illusions that the situation would have been any better had Allende stayed in power - even thought my parents knew him personally through some close friends many years before he was president - since we all know now what living under communism really means. - My current partner is an Australian who escaped the communist regime in the Czech Republic - Still, nothing can excuse torture, not even "following orders". That is just a cop-out of sadist cowards who want to justify what is clearly immoral.

I knew first hand stories and accounts from people who were in the Air force; not troopers, but high ranking Colonels. My father had been an Air Force pilot and left the military to purse his love of flying - way before Allende and Pinochet - so he still knew a lot of people in that branch of the military. We had family members who were members of the extreme right wing militia "Patria y Lilbertad" and also had family members who were members of the Christian Democratic party and there were some pretty heated debates going on during those years in our living room. Including why the CIA was involved - Yes! has anyone forgotten the role of Nixon and Kissinger in all this? - which is also a fact. I had many friends in the American Embassy in those days as well.

In brief, I have been through the experience and had the dilemma of who to believe for many years and have come to the conclusion that the abuse of power and corruption must be dealt with regardless of how many years have gone by. Cruelty cannot be justified under any banner and it's not because God would accept it or not. It is because it is the right and moral thing to do, whether in Chile, Russia. China or Zimbabwe.

It is my understanding that God himself would not have approved of those murders and would condemn them in no uncertain terms.


Oh really Carlos? aren't there enough passages in your holy book that call to the killing of innocents?

"MATTHEW 10:34 - I come not with peace but with the sword"

"LUKE 19:27 - Those mine enemies, bring here and slay them."

I was raised as a Catholic and went to a private Catholic school as well. I know that he bible is full of contradictions and so I think we should leave all the gods and fairies and leprechauns out of this.

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Re: I am disgusted by what happened under Pinochet!

Postby admin » Wed Feb 10, 2010 9:41 am

Holy dead threads Batman!!!! :shock:

I will be curious however to see how the new administration handles this. The far right does not want any prosecutions at all, and the left in recent months has been going to the other extreme. In the last few months as the current party is slipping out of power, they have been rounding up anyone that had any association at all with the people in those days and throwing them in jail and using other strong armed tactics to get them to talk or testify. A lot of people that had nothing to do with it and very little knowledge of it are suddenly having their lives turned upside down and being accused of collaboration. I am sure there are some useful witnesses out there, but this more of dragnet style sweep rather than putting pressure on specific material witnesses.
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Re: I am disgusted by what happened under Pinochet!

Postby tombrad2 » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:16 am

Judges dance with ruler´s music. During Pinochet they where pinochetistas, during concertacion they where concertacionistas, now they will obbey "sugerences" of the current Piñera´s government. I used to work in courts in the 90´s and met many judges and ministers, they are more worried about their careers tan anything else. The humang rigth abuses during the military is not a relevant issue nowadays
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Re: Pinochet

Postby vanman » Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:00 pm

JHyre wrote:Carlos,

Things are not nearly so simple as portrayed by any English publication, written or verbal, that I have ever seen. Specifically, everything I've seen written in English is very friendly to the left at the expense of facts. Why? Because this sort of comparatively dry writing (e.g., history, poli- sci) is pretty much exclusive to university people and reporters....and unfortunately, university and media have long-since out-McCarthy'ed the Senator from Wisconsin & purged their ranks of intellectual diversity. Try getting a job in University humanities field after admitting to being a <gasp!> - Republican. The result: A consistently leftist worldview that permeates everything those people do (Example - the move "Missing", agitprop at its finest). Witness what you've read about Chile so far. If you are interested in some Spanish titles that give the other side's perspective, I can cull through my library to find them. Another way to get some perspective - talk to Chileans IN Chile. A disproportionate percentage of the Chilean diaspora tends left, as they were the ones who thought it advisable to leave Chile, so their average opinion will be skewed. "Average" opinion changes once you are there. A very large plurality (40 - 46% or so) did and still do support Pinochet.

A few pointers, from a guy who, unlike university leftists and press pinkos, won't dessemble on his on politics (I'm fairly libertarian on most domestic issues, fairly "hawkish" on foreign policy and thought Ronald Reagan was one of our best presidents), which allows you to take my bias into account:

1) In terms of body-count, Communists/Marxists make Hitler look like a gifted amateur. The prospect of their taking over total power in Chile rightly frightened many people into thinking they would be up agianst a wall;

2) As Tom Brad (and several Chilean publications) correctly notes elsewhere on this site, Allende had < NO EMAIL > 30% of the vote on his own and won because one of the parties threw their < NO EMAIL > 30% vote over to him. He (and his allies, whom he was unable, perhaps unwilling, to control) then started to take his "mandate" and radically transform Chile's long established political norms, with the stated goal of creating a Marxist state.

3) Allende's govt, as noted by Tom Brad, was also very selective about enforcing laws, allowing illegal expropriations to occur on a wide basis. FYI, the act of expropriation (and the counter-reaction), also known as "theft", is generally a violent act. Avoiding such violence is one of the primary reasons we have government (at least under classic Lockean social contract theory). What Allende couldn't get via a pretence of law (transformation to Marxist state), he was willing to obtain via extra-legal, violent means. Any chascone a$$hole wearing a “Che” T-Shirt could, and did, walk in and start making demands, such as, this house is too big, you are getting some campesinos as new co-owners, you can only keep these two rooms, your daughter is very attractive, etc.

4) Allende killed the economy. There was an initial "boom" based on truly massive increases in spending, which spending was in fact “eating the seed corn”. Afterwards, massive inflation & shortages occurred. Similar to USSR, people connected with ruling party could literally get to the front of the line, while others would wait in line all day and get nothing. To this day, my father in law rages that he could not get milk for my then infant wife, and that the only trouble he has ever had with the law was with Allende’s goons. You didn’t think I’d marry into a family of Commies, did you? It got so bad that the women were marching in streets, banging the empty pots & pans. Hungry people who are used to not being hungry & see others who are "connected" doing fine get violent.

5) The MIR and others were arming up. Weeks long visits by Castro and gift of AK-47 by same to Allende were not exactly positive signs. Remember, we were in the collectivist 70’s, when freedom was on the retreat and smelly, Birkenstock-wearing gringos in Ponchos & Che T-Shirts were showing up in Chile to help encourage the same results as achieved in Eastern Europe….and soon, SE Asia, with all of the blood-letting that implied. The threat of total Marxist takeover was very, very real.

6) Legislature asked the military to step-in, I will leave the details of that (including foolish threats by a popular socialist senator that frightened others in Senate & military) to your reading. There were Senators and officers’ wives scattering chicken feed in front of military bases….Chilean military had (and I think still has, to a large degree) a strong Prussian tradition of being apolitical…..but when things get bad enough, military dictatorship seemed (and ultimately, was) less bad.

7) Yes, Pinochet whacked < NO EMAIL > 3,000 people & disappeared about the same number, with more being tortured. I’m sure some of them were innocent. Most of them were not. The reason the Leftists cry is that the apparatus of their beloved God, The State, was turned on them. Evidently, being on the barrel end of a gun isn’t nearly so "romantic" as having one’s hand on the trigger. I have ZERO tears for the Communists, Marxists and MIR people who Pinochet killed. Zero. They got what they and their brethren are only to happy to dish out. Same goes for Che.

8) In my opinion, Pinochet kept Chile from going into civil war. For a frame of reference, El Salvador (where my mom’s side of the family is from), was utterly destroyed by a vicious civil war – one where the Left and the Right were indistinguishable, both being utterly savage in the extreme. In a country whose population is < NO EMAIL > 1/3 of Chile’s, 75,000 died and the country was left in ruins. 6,000 or so dead Leftists (mostly) is a much “less bad” (as opposed to better) result. I only wish that El Salvador had had a Pinochet, several of my relatives might still be alive. And the country might even be a place where one would want to live, like, say, Chile.

9) Pinochet turned the county around economically. Ultimate testament to that fact – all of the left-leaning governments since he left have tampered very little with his economic model. The stability and prosperity that attracts many expats to Chile were no accident. Would it have been ideal to get the same results in a liberal democracy? Sure. But we do not live in an ideal world, and any real chance for liberal democracy died for a time once Allende pushed his plurality of votes into an extra-legal transformation into a Marxist state.

10) Pinochet stepped down. How many dictators, left or right, do that? Ever? Bueller? Bueller?.....

The guy wasn’t perfect. Power corrupts, and he was no exception. On the whole, his dictatorship was as good as a dictatorship could be, and occurred when other options were likely to fail and lead to civil war. On the whole, Chile was better off for having had him. Next time some Che-T-Shirt wearer (read: publicly proud of holding a philosophy similar to, and much deadlier than, Nazi-ism) wants to talk about Pinochet, ask them when Castro will step down, how the people of Cuba live (health of the average guy in Cuba is lousy, Mr. Moore, which is why you do not go there except to make mendacious films), how many died there under his lash and how many political prisoners lounge in his dungeons TODAY. Certainly, human rights abuses are relevant in a discussion of Pinochet – but a discussion limited to that wouldn’t begin to tell the whole story.

John Hyre, open about his bias



Thanks for a great post. Now if only the capitalists would be a little less exploitive, and the socialists a little less controlling. As Yakov Smirnoff once said, quoting his uncle: "In capitalism, man exploits man. In communism, it's the other way around!"
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Re: Pinochet

Postby otravers » Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:36 pm

vanman wrote:
JHyre wrote:Thanks for a great post. Now if only the capitalists would be a little less exploitive, and the socialists a little less controlling. As Yakov Smirnoff once said, quoting his uncle: "In capitalism, man exploits man. In communism, it's the other way around!"


Show us a list of capitalist regimes that, give or take, killed 100M people between them, then you get to equate capitalism with socialism.
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Re: I am disgusted by what happened under Pinochet!

Postby stang33 » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:22 pm

Some folks get bent out of shape by the alleged abuse about the Pinochet regime and not so concerned about those reporting the abuses. If you look at the Human Rights organizations of the world and especially the UN, you will see that almost entirely are made of of socialist/left wing do gooders. You don't see them getting upset about Bolivia, Ecuador, Venezuela and other leftist countries. Right now they're after Uribe in Colombia and the abuses that they seem to see but don't mention the FARC and other para military organizations operating around the globe. Human Rights Watch is strictly POLITICAL !!!! :twisted:

Better to listen to those who know about the REAL abuses from Pinochet's time. The socialists I'm sure have inflated the data to make their case. Ive heard 300 to 3,000 casualties, who knows the real truth?? :?:

If you want the real story, ask El P or Tom B for another side of the picture. Not young socialist students or the acadamic professors that spill out their socialist rhetoric. Chile needs what the USA also needs, a purging of the academic left from their erducational systems and teach TRUE history. Good post John Hyre. Thought I would also let my bias show !!! :)

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Re: Pinochet

Postby vanman » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:39 pm

otravers wrote:
vanman wrote:
JHyre wrote:Thanks for a great post. Now if only the capitalists would be a little less exploitive, and the socialists a little less controlling. As Yakov Smirnoff once said, quoting his uncle: "In capitalism, man exploits man. In communism, it's the other way around!"


Show us a list of capitalist regimes that, give or take, killed 100M people between them, then you get to equate capitalism with socialism.


Now before you get in a twist, I'm not equating them. However, in the case of the U.S., if the capitalists would be more generous, people like Obama, Pelosi, and Reid wouldn't get into power. Come Nov. the Republicans will do well, and most likely take the presidency in 2012. Things will go well for awhile, then people will start noticing that they aren''t getting ahead while wealth is being concentrated into fewer hands. Eventually resentment will build up, they'll forget or not remember Carter and Obama, the media and the universities will demonize and ridicule the right, another smooth talker will come along, and the Socialists will think their chance of establishing a permanent worker's utopia has finally arrived. And the average folk will suffer the most. All because a % of the population has a lust for wealth that would have the rest of us living like serfs if that's what it takes to get richer. Everyone has blood on their hands but I agree that capitalism is the best way to feed, clothe, and house the most people. The Chinese have realized this. Colombia, Peru, and Chile have come a long way due to capitalism. That has to make people in Latin American socialist regimes wonder. By the way, while all communists are socialists, not all socialists are communists. I was referring to the kind of socialism we see in western Europe, not the rabid, kill the dissenters kind.
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Re: I am disgusted by what happened under Pinochet!

Postby stang33 » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:55 pm

One additional quote for consideration.

"Government "help" to business (capitalism) is just as disastrous as government persecution ------- the only way a government can be of service to national prosperity is by keeping its hands off."
Ayn Rand

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Re: I am disgusted by what happened under Pinochet!

Postby JHyre » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:47 am

Thanks for the kind words. By and large, I agree with the last few posts. BTW, any of you in Vina area circa June - August, we can discuss (and rant!) in person.

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Re: I am disgusted by what happened under Pinochet!

Postby Atlantis » Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:02 pm

Stang33 wrote:

"Government "help" to business (capitalism) is just as disastrous as government persecution ------- the only way a government can be of service to national prosperity is by keeping its hands off."
Ayn Rand


I absolutely agree with you there. I am a capitalist/objectivist myself - admirer of Ayn Rand - and loathe the excess government intrusion into our lives. However, having the majority of my family and many good friends still in Chile I know that there is an underlying feeling of resentment for not having closure into certain allegations that occurred under Pinochet; and we will never be able to move on until these issues are cleared.

Again, I am planning to move back to Chile after an extensive expatriate life - moving around with a multinatioanal - but to the south of the country where life is more about quality and not quantity. I was never in a position of "having to leave Chile" due to political persecusion ( in fact I left in 1989), but I do feel there is a need for justice starting with a 'tabula rasa'. I have my hopes that Pinera can deliver some form of closure so that the country can move on since the socialilsts were never able to do so.

BTW, not all human rights organizations are leftists. I volunteered some time in Australia with Amnesty International and to my surprise discovered that the concept is a myth.

:) Atlantis
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Re: I am disgusted by what happened under Pinochet!

Postby Real State » Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:33 pm

im not pinochet supporter but i know a lot of them.
the pinochet secret police kill almost 3,000 and tortured much more. but comparing this to hitler is mentally insane. many democracies in latin america kill 10 times or more people, like in peru (alan garcia and belaunde in the 80s kill aprox 40,000, in colombia the goverment kill much more than that, in salvador they had a dictatorship and democracy and they were killed like 40,000 in the 80s, and many many another examples) argentine dictatorship kill more or less 40,000 an many other examples. pinochet was so famous because many of the exiled and killed people were midle class commies or professionals and then the chilean exiled people go for all the world saying that pinochet was like hitler more or less. in peru most of the murdered people were natives and no one cares about them in the western world. thats sad but true.

plus, pinochet gov made it very good at economics and they were very succesfull against argentina, peru and bolivian dictatorships who wanted to attack chile in the late 70s (three at same time) also pinochet had very good relations with some western right wingers as in UK m thatcher. all that things made international comunist hate pinochet so much.

pinochet wasnt good, thats true. but he was in some things very succesfull and he was the onliest dictator in latin america who gives the power to the democratic goverment in a peacfull way.
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Re:

Postby patagoniax » Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:37 am

admin wrote:.... There is far more than makes it to the media outside of Chile going on in that respect. .


This rejoinder comes a while after the original postings, but it might be worth considering.

I lived and attended university in Spain during the Franco regime. I was even thrown in jail by Franco's secret police. In 1978 I came to Chile - the Chile of Pinochet. So I have first-hand experience in both the Franco and the Pinochet regimes, although not during the worst of times. For fresh memories of the truly bad times I had plenty of the local people all around me who knew where the bodies were buried (figuratively). It was in Spain that I almost learned that true social wisdom for a forastero is keeping your mouth shut at the right time.
Last edited by patagoniax on Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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