Chile Forum

Nobody ignore the past here in Chile, but most of chileans stop to discuss about that. Anyone has an opinion and, in the big numbers this reflects in the political split of chilean opinion, more or less half and half.

Those of us who endorsed or justify the military rule vote to Alianza por Chile
Those who reject all the military rule vote to Concertacion

Is that so simple, well, there are many in-between political opinions: many of us aprobe in the big numbers and botton line the military but reject the murders and abuses. Others reject the military but recognizes that Allende rule was a disaster and milittary was unavoidable, and so, ad infinitum.

But I have clear that most of chileans are not intersted at all to discuss the matter. Thos who discuss are the directly involved, hoping to obtain some indenmizacion money or such. Human rigths is not an important issue in politics since 7 or more years.

Thanks, Tomás. I'll keep your words in mind.

Yeah, in my 7 years here, I have never seen even the Chileans I know get into a discussion among themselves. It only trickles out in one line statements and comments usually a pro/anti Pinochet/Allende cheer or such.

I thought I would see a fight one time in the bar I met my pareja when one table of chilenos overheard a disparaging remark about Pinochet at another table and the Pinochet supporter got up and pointedly addressed the commenter with "and who saved Chile?". The question was repeated again but the commenter said nothing, ignored him and the situation quickly deescalated and life went on.

To flip your analogy around, sometimes picking at old wounds does not help the healing process.

There is still a slow steady movement, mostly in the courts to bring justice for the victims and their families. Things like stripping the immunity of those involved have made some progress in the courts, and as with all prosecutions of this sort they go on for years and years and years until everyone is dead. The international court of justice, and the EU countries for all of their human rights flag waving have yet to do much better at prosecuting human rights violators and war criminals.

My wife sat through most of the trial proceedings for Milošević at the ICJ in the Hague while going to law school in the Neatherlands, just to have the guy kick the bucket before it was over. Her academic specialization is in international criminal law and jurisdictional issues.

Sometimes just the slow nature of formal prosecution can help the perpetrators escape.

This thread has given me a great deal to think about. I certainly do appreciate the comments that have been shared ... even those that might believe something different than me. In some respects I am still not completely sure what I should believe or do if anything at all. I have thought of volunteering to help out the organization of the disappeared I think it's called by giving them free web site work. Don't know.

I also don't know why this issue has hit me so incredibly hard. I mean I have read countless accounts of the murders and horrors committed by the Nazis in WWII and what I have read has never hit me half as hard as what I have read about what happened in Chile. I mean what happened in Chile was terrible in terms of the murders and such but in comparison to what happened in WWII to the Jews alone for example (never mind other people groups) what happened in Chile was very small in terms of the amount of people killed. 3000 plus or minus compared to 6,000,000 Jews.

Yet like I said what happened in Chile has hit me like a ton of bricks. In some respects I have not been able to get it out of mind. It's affecting my whole view of Chile and especially the view of the Chilean military. A few days ago I was watching the Chilean military parades with admiration on YouTube...now all I can think of at the thought of watching such parades again is the fact that the very same military was complicit in the atrocities that I have mentioned and it turns my stomach.

I suppose part of why it has hit me so hard is that deep within I consider myself a Chilean. Not an American or Canadian or anyone else. I was born in Chile. I had Chilean parents who raised me with very Chilean values. Although I did not grow up in Chile past the age of 7 years old...those first few years indelibly imprinted within me a sense of belonging to Chile.

My uncles, aunts, and a host of other relatives are all Chileans and if I were to venture to guess most if not all would have been Pinochet supporters.

So I guess in that sense all this has become very personal for me. Thus my stronger than usual feelings about this issue.

I understand Chileans not wanting to talk about these things. For sure. In some respects I too have not wanted to talk much more about it either. What I have read has destroyed forever my idealic view of Chile and that has been a very hard pill to swallow for me.

Despite not wanting to talk about it though I think that Chileans cannot and must not sweep this under the rug, forget it, or hope it just goes away.

Here's why...

It would be one thing if things happened, those responsible were eventually brought to justice - those who still were alive that is, and the country could move on in heart regarding these issues. But that has not been the case. There is still a wound there in the hearts of many Chileans. It raises it's ugly head in all manner of ways that are not even directly related to what happened. Just the other day I read of a Caribenero killing a Mapuche Indian and the outcry from the Mapuche was that we should never allow the killing to happen again. The killing being a reference to what happened under Pinoche.

Even the YouTube military parade comments have a generous helping of insults back and forth between those who are pro military and were pro Pinoche and those who are/were not.

I guess what I am saying is that not wanting to talk about it or otherwise deal with what happened does not promote a sense of healing if such a lack of discussion is not tied to some measure of justice for those wronged.

It would appear that the wounds of the past are still in the collective psyche of the Chilean people in one form or another. The affects of that wound continue to cause division and animosity among some in Chile and that is not good. Not good at all.

I think of how I personally have been impacted by all this. And I have not even had any relative that I know of killed or disappeared or otherwise tortured - in part I suppose because most all my relatives would have been pro Pinoche if I am not mistaken. Imagine for a moment if my father had been killed. Or my mother or sister raped and tortured. Or several of my uncles had been disappeared.

Such a thing would not go away within my heart - apart from the grace of God operating within me to free me - and would fester and fester and tend to make me bitter. Bitterness of heart like that tends to cause ongoing division and strife and anti-social tendencies.

I imagine that there are a fair number of Chileans for whom that is the case and in so far as they may not be able to get past what happened as easily as one can stop talking about it, their potential contribution to Chilean society is diminished.

There is another aspect to all this...and I hope that I am not unduly boring anyone by my long posts but I do want to say some things...the military continues to this day to protect itself and not come entirely clean with regard to what happened. It continues to obstruct justice and THAT is a big problemo!

A democracy cannot have a military that obstructs justice in the country it is sworn to defend!

Let me quote from a page that I would recommend everyone read (http://www.memoriayjusticia.cl/english/ ... rrios.html).

First a little explanation for anyone who might not know what some of the references in the quote are about...(like newcomers to this forum and/or to Chile)...

Berrios was a DINA (secret police) operative that was implicated in the murder of Orlando Letelier on U.S. soil by the use of a car bomb. Mr. Letelier had been the Chilean Ambassador to the U.S. under Allende. In 1991, Santiago Court of Appeals Judge Adolfo Bañados subpoenaed Berrios to testify in the Letelier assassination investigation. The Chilean military proceeded to take Berrios out of Chile to Uruguay presumably to keep him from testifying. After being there for a while he was killed when he began to indicate a desire to return to Chile.

According to Wikipedia (not a foolproof source I know but they explained it well) "Operation Condor was a campaign of political repressions involving assassination and intelligence operations officially implemented in 1975 by the right-wing dictatorships of the Southern Cone of South America. The program aimed to deter left-wing influence and ideas and to control active or potential opposition movements against the usually conservative governments."

Carlos Prats was the head of the military under Allende just before the Pinochet coup. He resigned before the coup and exiled himself to Argentina where he was eventually killed, along with his wife, by a DINA planted car bomb.

With that said here is what I wanted to quote...

The Berrios episode suggests the persistence of Operation Condor. It is evident that still now this network allows the military structure of both countries to ignore their national governments, evade judicial prosecution and commit crimes in other countries. It implies that the relations between military that facilitated the assassination of General Carlos Prats during his exile in Argentina as well as the murders of 100 other Chilean exiles persist even today. The years of electoral democracy have not succeeded in breaking the military network nor limit the extraordinary discretionary authority and autonomy the Chilean military enjoys.

THAT is a major, major problem!! For any democracy.

I guess what I am saying is that the terrible things that occurred under the rule of Pinochet with respect to the persons who were murdered under his rule (not everything that happened under Pinoche was terrible) and the way Chile has been unable for various reasons to come entirely clean by freely finding and prosecuting all individuals involved in murderous acts points to a BIG problem that is still present in Chilean society. A problem that MUST be dealt with or it will cause problems again in the future I believe.

Chile must not forget what happened or develop an indifference to it precisely because what happened and how it is being dealt with now points to this wider problem. The problem being institutions like the military continuing to obstruct justice when it suits them to do so. It is my opinion that a democracy cannot long endure and/or bring about a healing that will allow it's people to move forward with one voice if such examples of institutional obstruction continue to make it difficult if not impossible to bring some measure of justice to those wronged.

Although the murder of Berrios happened in 1992 (16 years ago) I have not read or heard anything to counter the quote above. If anyone knows differently I would appreciate hearing about it. I am particularly interested not in just knowing what the military has said in more recent years - after all anyone can say anything - but more importantly what it has DONE to help in the prosecution of those who committed murderous acts under Pinoche.

Carlos

Well first of all, welcome to the forum. Glad to have you on board, but we have a 10 post rule for new users. After that, you post a link to your blog or other sites in your signature within the rules.

Linking rules:
topic724.html

Sorry, I am still the process of making them a bit more obvious. Likely more my fault than yours.

thechileanobserver wrote:. . . . Read more here <Link removed by admin> if you care about chilean future.

I'm too late to the feast! I do care about the future of Chile and would have followed the link. But I also am irked by single-post visitors and so for that reason alone would see the sense in the administrator's policy. Nevertheless, I do regret having missed the link.

It use to be 50 posts on the old forum where spam was a real issue. I have lowered it now to 10 posts. Just sufficient to insure that the posters are for real, and discourage spammers from putting down roots. Even the humans hired Asia to post links, generally will not make 10 real posts.

No the site is fine, it was a Chile personal blog and I fully encourage him once the 10 post requirement is met for him to post it in his signature. Again, it is more enforced just not to encourage other spammers than I some how believe this to be spam.

You can talk about the weather in Chile and hit that requirement fairly fast.

thechileanobserver wrote:

RWS wrote:

thechileanobserver wrote:. . . . Read more here <Link removed by admin> if you care about chilean future.

I'm too late to the feast! I do care about the future of Chile and would have followed the link. But I also am irked by single-post visitors and so for that reason alone would see the sense in the administrator's policy. Nevertheless, I do regret having missed the link.

here it is <link removed by admin>

I've missed it again, TCO. If you wish to e-send the electronic address to me by PM, I'd be grateful. Otherwise, please consider reposting it after you've met the quota of ten initial postings in this forum. Thanks.

Ah it´s easy RWS just google "the chilean observer" it is a very interesting blog, worth to read

Thanks, Tomás. I'll do that.

Carlos, and all,

First, I thought your post is interesting, and passionate. It's easy to say, "There are two side to every story, and the truth is somewhere in the middle." Sometimes, maybe, but sometimes one side IS the true story. What happens in discussions many times is that we (and I am equally guilty) label one side of the argument as "Left-Wing", or "Right-Wing", plopping on the words "propoganda", or "spin". This only ensures that anyone reading it who already has an opinion of right-left, tends to disregard the opinion or argument of the other side and there only ends up being label-slinging and no real discussion. I will re-read your post and add some comments later when I have time.

Referring to the recent new poster on this thread: I DO VOTE to discount post from people that basically say the equivalent of "post" just to get the number up so they can link. If you have nothing more to say, bug off!

Vicki

One thoughtful post is worth more than a hundred smiley faces.

I have to say the Uniforms that looks like the Nazi unirforms are adopted from the Prussian tradition, My parents lived through that period of time. There's good things that happened my grandparents got their house under Pinochet, and they were middle class workers my grandpa worked his A%^ off to get it and he did, the government offered to build "los departamentos" in that terrain where my mom's family and a whole bunch of others were living. They are hardcore apartments they survive "el terremoto del 85" my grandpa died in 85 but he was able to pay the apartment and now my grandma is debt free, they didn't suffer any type of oppression it was a matter of working. Now to close, Stalin was much worse he killed millions of his own people for not wanting to give up their land with the "party" and let's not forget that Neruda loved Stalin, but you know people don't like to talk about that.